I answered BJ twice
Aug 29, 2007 Homeschooling
Once in the comments to the post below and now I’m going to answer this part:
You talk about wanting Noah to be “successful” as the motivation. But, what’s your definition of success? This is an issue I’ve been pondering a lot lately.
I feel most successful when I’m effectively using my skills or effectively learning new skills. I feel most successful when I’m confronted with a problem/issue/challenge and know how to meet it. I feel most successful when I am working on something and can feel forward movement.
Turning in a piece I’m proud of that’ll get a check cut? Successful! Working on a project that’s had me stumped and finding a way out? Successful! Especially as I’ve unlearned (unschoolers call this “deschooling”) the “correct” way to get things done and unlearned my dysfunctional (to keep my sanity in school) way of handling the “correct” way. I feel successful because I’ve learned who I am and how I work and I am able to work with myself.
I feel most successful when I feel the most competent. I want my kids to feel successful. Thus I default to homeschool (that links to “Growing without Schooling” because John Holt inspired me to really embrace unschooling).
How does this connect with virtual school?
Something I like about homeschooling is that the family can use their values to define success instead of the values of an institution. (I don’t buy it that school is a microcosm of society and that kids learn social values best there. Society is society — why not learn social values in the middle of actual true real life?) Because BJ, you may feel that parents shouldn’t shuck their religious views off on their kids but the bigger issue is that parents should (and can’t help!) shuck their values off on their kids. The packaging — how the parents package their values whether it’s with politics or religion or education — is how we name and organize our values.
Sometimes people equate the packaging with the values so (and BJ didn’t say this but it’s a common criticism) sometimes people hear “homeschooling” and they think “over-protective” or “isolating” or “controlling.” And some homeschoolers are those things but not the ones I hang with. The homeschoolers I hang with promote independence, community, freedom.
Sure someone who’s thinking all homeschoolers embrace over-protection, isolation and control can say, “Homeschooling limits a child’s freedom” but I’d answer, “If a kid has to raise his hand to ask permission to use the bathroom, can’t read a chapter of his book when he has a mind to, and can only use the swingset during a set time period during the day — that limits a child’s freedom.”
It’s all a trade-off. I homeschool for the very reasons someone else doesn’t because I see homeschooling is a better way to impart our values. Someone else sees school as a better means to that end. We’re parents. We make value decisions for our kids.
So to virtual school.
I know that lots of homeschoolers want to try school around the teen years (lots don’t, too). And Noah has for the first time EVER expressed interest in school because yet another one of his little friends is going to school next year instead of staying home making for a smaller social circle. Also I swear that High School Musical has a lot to do with this. I say this because he went to that big pool party at his ortho’s and afterwards he was saying it was just like HSM (they had a dance-off and most of the kids were older tweens/young teens). Which just breaks my heart a little bit but ok, he is certainly able to check it out for himself! (Although I do think Ryan would fit into our local alternative school so maybe a little bit of HSM lives on there!)
Anyway Noah is not accustomed to sitting down and doing seat work every single day. He’s not used to “showing his work.” And he’s behind in math (in unschooling there is no ahead/behind — there’s where the child is and you move forward from there, period). So if he’s going to go to school I want him to feel competent and to know how to solve his problems there. By my definition of success, he’ll need to know how school works to get in there and work that system and feel competent and thus successful.
Heck, I wouldn’t send him to live in a foreign country without at least teaching him to say, “Hello” “Which way to the nearest bathroom” and “Can you tell me how to hail a cab?” Virtual school is the same thing to me. We would not be doing it if we didn’t want him to have the option of going to school if he so chooses.
I hope that if Noah goes he will find a way to be successful at school but I hope that he is able to orient his concept of success inward and not outward. (I’m afraid the virtual school is not great at teaching this because it’s very completion-focused.)
August 29th, 2007 at 10:31 am
I think the whole “packaging versus values” issue cuts both ways. People assume, because we chose public schools, that we value grades, think test scores are important, and define success as admission to a selective college. None of that is true: I think letter grades are mostly useless, test scores are absurd and undermine education, and success is defined as finding your passion and building the skills to pursue it (while also having enough skills to discover and pursue new passions throughout your life). We chose public schools because, among all the school options available, we though it would best educate our children, give them the resources and tools they needed to achieve those goals. (While also knowing that someday, they’re going to have to define their goals for themselves.)
Now many homeschoolers — probably you especially Dawn — think we’re wrong to believe we can achieve our goals via the public schools. And that’s okay. I just think it’s important to note that the conversation that intrigues me most, and that has the most universal appeal to me, is the conversation about the goals. Because frankly, only my husband and I are in a position to offer ultimate judgement about which packaging will best get our children where we and they want to go. But lots of people have lots of good ideas about how to define the goals themselves.
August 29th, 2007 at 10:32 am
I really appreciate and enjoy reading your views on school/homeschool/unschooling. I don’t feel institutional/public schools are how I want my kids educated. Yet…my daughter is in 1st grade in public school. Until last May, I was a full time college student and homeschooling didn’t fit us. And until a few days ago, Sophia was all about going to school, and she seems to love it. We have homeschooling friends, and a few days ago SOphia said she would like to homeschool. Now, she isn’t having a bad time at school and she still enjoys it.
I dunno. I agree with you about the value of homeschooling (and unschooling principles). I agree with you about the limitations and drawbacks of public school. When I think about homeschooling, though, I feel overwhelmed and unsure about beng able to do it in a way that will serve Sophia well on her road to a successful education. I also worry about the fact that Sophia is a wonderful listener to her teachers, but not as good at listening and not arguing with me. I don’t think she’d work the same for me.
I’ve also seen kids that would not do well at all in public school…but I’ve seen kids who thrive in it, too, and who wouldn’t be a good fit for homeschool.
So I appreciate your religion metaphor in your earlier post, because it’s so true…the fit is differenty for everyone.
Now, if I could only afford those Montessori schools…Heh.
August 29th, 2007 at 10:41 am
“Now many homeschoolers  probably you especially Dawn  think we’re wrong to believe we can achieve our goals via the public schools.”
Whoa, Jody, I think I’ve gone way way way out of my way to say that I DON’T think you’re wrong. I think it’s wrong FOR ME and FOR MY FAMILY. Obviously there are a ton of kids who do great in public schools and there are a ton of kids who don’t. And I don’t think there’s a big and diverse enough control group of homeschoolers to really say anything definitive about homeschooling (because homeschoolers are self-selected in a way that schoolers are not).
I am trying to keep this personal (as in focused on MY personal feelings/beliefs) because I think lots of times different people use the same value goals to come to different places. (I’d say lots of different religions are working the golden rule but they’re not all working it the same way and certainly not with the same trappings but they’re all working it *as they see best.*)
It’s very hard to have a dialog about school choices because it’s hard for me to say “I believe this for me” without anyone hearing the obvious “and so I DON’T believe that.” But the important part is to remember I’m saying FOR ME, FOR MY FAMILY, FOR MY KIDS.
All I have to do is look at Becca (not-quite-sure) who has great kids in public schools to acknowledge that school works for a lot of families I admire. I’d never say that she’s not meeting her goals of having fabulous, self-confident, smart kids because they’re in school; it’s just not the best way for MY FAMILY to do it.
August 29th, 2007 at 11:39 am
Oh Dawn, we share such similar feelings about this topic.
And too, when people talk about homeschoolers being controlling or over protective, especially in terms of socialization, I just wholehearedly disagree.
In schools, most children, at very early ages, form off into little subgroups of comfort. They do not learn tollerance, or curiosity about differences, which are more complex value systems best taught by adults; they learn self protection, which is best accomplished by sticking to what you know.
Conversely, in our homeschool situation, we have been exposed to children of very different backgrounds than us. Some are ultra religious (Amish, Mennonites, Baptists) some are ulta political (Freemen, Free-thinkers, Commune-dwellers, Back-to-the-Land-ers) and will all of these families and communities, we talk about ways we are alike, and ways we are different, and what we can offer each other and how we can learn from each other.
Works for us! And if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it!
August 29th, 2007 at 11:41 am
Ack. I think it would help serve my point if I paid more attention to my typos…my apologies!
August 29th, 2007 at 12:02 pm
You know, I confess I’m surprised. I’ve had the distinct impression that you feel passionately about the problems with public schools, and that your claims were not only specific but also general.
In fact, I thought you were a homeschooler in part because, given your values and goals, you thought it was the best choice. Not just for Noah, but for your own values.
You said, back on 17 Dec 2004: “School goes against my values about what’s important. If I sent Noah to school, I would be going against my values. It would be like sending him to a fundamentalist church and asking him to remain Jewish.”
So I guess I figured you’d at least raise an eyebrow when I claimed to share a lot of those same values, but also send my kids to public school.
The thing is, I’ve read you carefully on schools over the years, because I think you have Important Things To Say. You’ve said them thoughtfully, with considerable nuance, and great finesse for the varying circumstances of people’s lives. But I nevertheless think that the message comes through:
From 14 Dec 2004: “I’ve never been a big fan of standardized tests and I’ve become increasingly dismayed by the way that No Child Left Behind has forced educators to depend more and more on test results to secure their funding. Basically, I feel that learning has been sacrificed for the cause of good test scores. …
Success is going to be different things to different people. If someone really values high test scores, they’re not going to appreciate what unschooling has to offer. Conversely, if someone like me comes along with little respect for test scores, she’s not going to care much about a private school who can boast that they’re the highest scoring district in the state. I don’t think that either approach is wrong  it’s really about different values. So while I may speak negatively about traditional schooling, I appreciate that my take on it isn’t necessarily right; it all has to do with my definition of success. This is why I don’t generally debate whether unschooling is better than homeschooling is better than public schooling, etc. Who’s to say? What does better mean, anyway? Just because I don’t care if Noah gets into an Ivy League school doesn’t mean that Ivy League schools have no value.
Brett and I have talked a lot about all of this and we define success pretty loosely. We want our children to think creatively, to understand the value of books (whether or not they’re big readers), to be able to figure out how to find answers to their questions, and to understand themselves enough to make sound decisions for their lives. While I used to think that I would stop homeschooling if the “right†school came along, I’m starting to realize that the only reasons I would send my kids to school would be if: 1) our finances demanded it; or 2) they really wanted to go. But this loose concept of success is something I come back to again and again as I work to define it for myself and understand it more concretely.”
See, I read that (today, again, thanks to your own links! but also at the time, because I was brand-new to blogs and thinking a lot about homeschooling at the time) as not just a particular critique, but a general one. And I also read it as a comment about the “match” between some of the values we share and homeschooling, and even unschooling in particular. I read that as a claim about whether our shared values about success could be achieved by ANYONE in a public-school setting.
So I’m curious to see you claim now that you’ve always been only about the particular, about the specifics of your family. That really does surprise me.
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Because I’m obsessive, and dissertation-avoiding right now, I ran back through your archives and picked out a whole bunch of quotations that stayed with me at the time. I also included a few that show how carefully you’ve praised homeschooling in terms of what works best for Noah and you in particular. I want to make sure you see me acknowledging that (because those capital-letter emphases have me a little spooked).
Just today, in this very post, you wrote: “Something I like about homeschooling is that the family can use their values to define success instead of the values of an institution. … If a kid has to raise his hand to ask permission to use the bathroom, can’t read a chapter of his book when he has a mind to, and can only use the swingset during a set time period during the day  that limits a child’s freedom.”
From 14 Aug 2007: “It’s the same kind of boring stuff that made us not want to do brick and mortar school. It’s a lot of busy-work and pointless activities.”
From 14 Nov 2005: “I realized that I will never ever ever be a good school mom. I have way way too many issues with traditional education. I own these  I have no desire to pin these issues on other people who feel differently. I am not an evangelical homeschooler by any means. I am more than willing to say, “Yeah, I might be wrong,†but I will never be able to wrap my head around so much of it.
I’m going to try really hard to talk about *my* experiences and not get critical about school for any other living person, ok? I know that many of you had positive experiences, that your kids are having positive experiences and that in a different school with different teachers it might all have been good for me, too. I’m trying to specifically talk about why there is something in me that makes me a poor school parent. I just don’t want anyone to feel defensive so I’m laying this all out right up front. …
I came out of that experience with a low disregard for worksheets, curriculum and blackboards. … And I think it would be incredibly unfair of me to send my kids to school and then disrespect their lives there. …
I have no faith  none  in the system. Zero. Zilch. I don’t believe in grades or standardized testing so how could I encourage my kids to get As or score 100? He’d say, “But I don’t feel like doing my homework,†and I’d say, “Yeah, no kidding. Let’s blow it off and read a book.†If I sent Noah to school, I’d be a hypocrite.”
Like I said, I know it can be different for people. My old therapist said that I shouldn’t force my own experiences on my kids but I don’t see how I could do otherwise. Whose experiences should I be using to inform my decisions? Brett’s? He’s coming to the same conclusions. My distrust of formal primary and secondary education goes way, way too deep.”
From 23 Sep 2005: “We chose to homeschool for a lot of reasons but the most obvious reason is that we felt that it was a better fit with Noah’s personality and would give him a greater shot at confidence and self-sufficiency.”
From 25 Apr 2005: “My school-at-home friends seem to struggle more than I do and I think that this is because the way they are schooling makes them more focused on visible accomplishments. I have no value judgment about this  if those things matter to you then they matter to you. If you’re working through a curriculum that expects your child to master certain skills in a certain order, then of course you’re going to have an investment in their skill mastery. That’s fine. I get that. I sometimes yearn for more structure so I could see recordable progress and I’m somebody who doesn’t really value that kind of learning so if I was someone who does, I can imagine how much more compelling my child’s measurable accomplishments would be. …
Unschooling is not the default choice; it’s not more “natural†than other kinds of schooling although sometimes really committed unschoolers will argue that it is. But the thing is, unschooling doesn’t work if you believe that part of living is climbing across the concrete accomplishments encouraged by more traditional forms of schooling, whether that be at home or in a building. What I mean is that ultimately your life is a series of experiences, right? And the sum of those experiences? I personally think that getting an A on a test is essentially meaningless in a very broad sense. I don’t think that tests are a true measure of knowledge, I don’t value the kinds of learning that are measured by tests, I don’t think that a grade on a single test says anything about the individual who earned it. But another person might really value those things that lead up to an A on a test. They might really value the experience of that kind of learning. It’s not just the A, standing alone starkly on a report card; it’s everything leading up to the A. For someone who wants their child to have that experience, unschooling would be a terrible terrible choice.
Now we can argue ’til the cows come home about whether or not those studious experiences mean anything and what they mean and if the work to get an A and the A itself has any worth and it wouldn’t matter what either of us said because there is no unassailable truth about education.”
From 28 Dec 2004: “According to our teacher friend who became disillusioned about the educational system just before he got his masters and now is both a homeschooler and a homeschool teacher, schooled kids tend to follow directions better. However, he adds, “Homeschool kids are usually more enthusiastic about being there.†Maybe this is part of what’s going on in the class because Noah says that there is a lot of disruption. …
The other thing that’s different about this class is that the teacher lectures while the kids follow his directions. There are a lot of hands-on activities but some of it is straight-forward teaching. Noah is more used to classes where the kids participate in the discussion and help lead the direction of the class. I think it’s good for him to be in a more traditional setting. After all, there are some things you can’t discuss esoterically; you just have to learn that socket A goes in socket B.”
From 12 Dec 2004: “The things that Noah would get in school just don’t seem worth it to me. I don’t particularly want him studying for a standardized test when he could be actively pursuing a personal interest. I don’t want him to know how he measures up compared to other kids. Frankly, I have no faith in the system.
Another big huge part of it is that I like having him around and he likes being around. We like how unschooling fits our family lifestyle and I believe that the good points of school are things we can replicate at home. So it’s not that I don’t believe he couldn’t have both, it’s that I don’t believe he needs both and the truth is (this is my opinion only and directed to my family alone), I can see no benefit and a lot of drawbacks in him going to school.
So what are the good points of school that we do make extra effort to give him?
–a set of friends to see on a regular basis
–other adults to be part of his learning experience
He can get that without going to school and he doesn’t have to deal with all of the yuck. Some people think yuck is character building but I think it’s just lousy. Curriculums designed to raise test scores, boredom, a reliance on external motivators, poorly written textbooks (I know, I used to proofread elementary school texts)  I think he’s better off without ‘em.”
There’s a lot more back before that, but this is about when I started to read your blog so I’ll stop there.
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And my point is, I see you, over and over, being really careful and considerate and thoughtful (that word again) about the value of other people’s choices. I TOTALLY get that.
I also see you having strongly-held beliefs about the value or lack thereof of traditional schools. Not just for your family, not just based on your own miserable, well-documented experiences, but based on John Holt’s philosophy and everything you’ve learned for yourself through the years.
So when I made that little throw-away comment, I wasn’t attacking you for being judgmental (and I ran across enough anonymous commentators in your archives to see why it might have felt that way). I was acknowledging what I assumed were your raised eyebrows as I claimed that unschoolers and NCLB-era public schoolers could still have the same goals for their kids.
Really: your eyebrows weren’t raised?
August 29th, 2007 at 12:13 pm
“So when I made that little throw-away comment, I wasn’t attacking you for being judgmental (and I ran across enough anonymous commentators in your archives to see why it might have felt that way). I was acknowledging what I assumed were your raised eyebrows as I claimed that unschoolers and NCLB-era public schoolers could still have the same goals for their kids.
Really: your eyebrows weren’t raised?”
No, they’re not.
I’ve got a friend who’s a political conservative. He’s a great guy. He believes many of the same things I believe most particularly that the government has an obligation to the poor. We absolutely fundamentally disagree on how the government should best meet this obligation. I state things as facts, “The government does this wrong” and so does he, “The government does that right!” But this doesn’t mean we condemn each other’s opinions.
Studies show this, studies show that — and we base our opinions on “facts” that we can’t really prove. Arguing in general with my friend about government policies? Kinda fun because I always learn a lot and we’re arguing theoretically and we both know that when it comes right down to it, we’re pretty much on the same side albeit like opposite sides of the same side.
I don’t find it as fun to argue about education because it’s NOT theoretical for any of us and so even those of us on the “same side” (i.e., not rigid authoritarians) who have very similar values for our kids can get defensive. (I get very defensive because you know, you choose to be in the minority and lots of people in the majority feel free to weigh in on your choices. I know I’ve blogged before about strangers telling me what’s wrong with homeschooling in front of my homeschooled kid in the grocery store.)
In my real life most of my parenting friends don’t homeschool. A bunch of ‘em did but most of them have kids in school now. I love my friends and I respect them. I know they are absolutely devoted to their kids and I know that they share most of the same values I share — that’s why we’re friends. We’re very careful around each other about school because even though we support each other’s choices, talking about our OWN choices (the way I do hear) can sound like criticism. So you know, we avoid any but the most general talk. (This is how my kid is doing, this is how your kid is doing.) But I don’t raise my eyebrows at them because I KNOW them and I know the love and devotion that are behind their decisions. I trust them. I trust their choices even if I wouldn’t make them. And I believe they extend the same courtesy to me.
Do I disagree with them? Only if they’d try to tell me that I should be doing it their way. As many factored as any educational choice is (as many factored as our kids are, as our life situations are, as our individual schooling options are, as the teachers who are doing the teaching are, etc. etc.), I absolutely cannot say with any certainty that any way is the right way and I just hope that MY way keeps on working for MY family.
August 29th, 2007 at 12:35 pm
Umm that should be “the way I do HERE” not “hear.”
Also I’d just like to refer to this gem of an essay: http://www.literarymama.com/oped/archives/000954.html
Again, like religion. I’m not raising my eyebrows at my sister the agnostic who wants her kids to grow to be good people and isn’t raising them within any religious tradition even though I’m raising my kids as Jews because I feel like it’s a big help when it comes to raising good people. It’s possible to hold both a personal view and a “the rest of the world” view.
August 29th, 2007 at 12:36 pm
Well, I guess we’re going to have to leave it at, I’m surprised. I don’t know why I should be, because I never have the least urge to raise my eyebrows at YOUR choices, but I am. You’ve just always written so passionately about why you think public schools are not a great fit for the values of pursuing passion, etc.
FWIW, I have never felt the least CONDEMNED by your arguments. I was imagining a sort of bemused, “well, THAT’S an interesting argument” sort of response from you. Absolutely friendly and respectful. Honestly I think you have the better argument on your side, if it comes to that.
I’ve thought often of homeschooling as a persuasive choice (helped along by an IRL friend who does it, with delight, and by a homeschooling community around here that is Activist with a capital A). I’m always a little astounded — but no longer surprised — when homeschooling entries provoke such hostility among blog commentators. I do hope you realize that I was not being hostile. Truly.
I’ve never had the sense that it was any of my business how you went about educating your son and daughter, but the stories you’ve shared over the years have more than convinced me that you made and are making fantastic choices for them. It’s a little embarrassing that I even have to type that out.
August 29th, 2007 at 12:40 pm
Well, thanks Jody and I guess I’m just mishearing you. I honestly don’t think other parents are making bad choices from within their paradigms. Honestly.
Frankly I’m having a really hard time with this virtual school (so many of the things I DON’T LIKE about school) but am doing it ‘cuz I love my kid and want him to have options and I love my husband who’s not as unschool-y as I am and needed more “proof.” So I’m feeling raw and defensive. Having BJ come on here and rattle my chain (and I don’t think she’s at all doing a drive-by or being out of line) bothered me way more than it would have, say, last week before the freakin’ school started.
My friend said I’m torqueing. I think that’s how you spell it. Anyway, I’m certainly twitchier and more teary these past two days.
August 30th, 2007 at 1:40 am
perfect timing — my kids just started school yesterday.
i’ve always been anti-school, and this, and most of your posts about it, help me articulate why. defining success is a good one.
i think i’ve been able to (so far) get across to my kids that success is not about the grade on the test or completing the homework and helping them see the bigger picture and learn in different ways.
what’s been hard for me is my daughter doing homework and me telling her to blow it off and just read (when she is exhausted after 2 hrs of work and is complaining that she just wants to read her book -in 3rd grade) and she refuses. she’s such a perfectionist, that she wants to do it all perfectly. what’s funny is that her teacher even told us that we should pick an amount of time that works for our family and let her do the things that intrest her most, and then stop.
i also resent the homework in general since i do think that is my time with my kids, or their own time, and the school has them all day.
i’ve also spent too much time helping out in school to see how much time they are wasting during the day. i keep telling myself that if i truly believe in unschooling, i have to think they are learning something and gaining something from the down time/unorganized/discipling other kids time too, but i’m not sure. or maybe i’m not sure those are things i want her to be learning.
it also depends a lot on the teacher. we were lucky with my daughter last year that she had some excellent teachers - who served as great role models, inspired learning in and out of the classroom, and helped learn social issues as well (still, third grade). my son, not so much. he kept coming home from school with things where i’d say ’see, this is why i want to homeschool’ to my husband.
anyway, i’d be interested in hearing your continued response to the virtual school and how it compares to what you’ve been doing until now. obviously, we all do what is best for our families, but hearing about somebody else’s experiences helps us figure out the options, or how to tweak our own options to reflect some of the values we want to teach our kids.