Ahh, juicy adoption discussion!
Feb 19, 2008 Adoption
From Krississippi (dot) com » A Response to a Response of a Response
Adoptive parent loss is becoming taboo to even mention. Admitting one is an adoptive parent (ESPECIALLY on the net) is to say something shameful. To say “I adopted and something happened and now I grieve” is shunned. Tell me it’s not. I’ve been called a baby stealer, a raper of another culture, not a “real mother”, and a whole lot of other nasty things. But should I call my son’s mother or any other birth mother someone who can’t parent because of “x” reason, I AM THE ONE FLAMED.
You know, I’ve heard more than once that adoptive parents are feeling hemmed in by “political correctness” on the adoption front — at least on the internet. This hasn’t been my reality but since I’ve heard it in more than one corner it’s clear it’s an experience other people are having. I’m bothered by any us vs. them mentality and am unhappy that much of the adoption community has been so segregated but I do think that we need our own safe spaces. (Although off the internet? I see no political correctness. And also other spheres of the online adoption world seem to be havens from political correctness. I guess we’re a progressive bunch.)
Frankly (and I know this is unpopular to some) I think that we adoptive parents have more room to give here. I remember this atrocious flamewar (I’ve mentioned it before) that was on misc.kids.adoption between anti-adoption activists and pro-adoption adoptive parents. It was one of those schisms where everyone was executing black/white thinking — the kind that really only happen on the internet because people become so entrenched in arguing. Anyway, one of the adoptive parents typed something like, “Yeah, well we have your babies!” (I don’t remember exactly what she typed, just the “we have your babies” line at the end.) And that’s the thing — we adoptive parents have the babies. To me, forgetting that important fact is a little like a white person hollering defensively, “But I didn’t own slaves!” in the face of someone hurt by racism.
It’s a delicate balance — acknowledging privilege isn’t the same thing as admitting to wrong-doing we haven’t directly participated in. It may be that we had wonderful, totally ethical adoptions but still, we have the babies and we got our babies within a system that isn’t equitable. Even if we ourselves are absolutely swell people, for some other hurting people we may symbolize the oppression they’re fighting. I get that. Frankly I choose not to own other people’s judgment about my family and my adoption and I choose not to get defensive when I get confronted by people who are angry but don’t know me or the particulars of my life. (I’m not always good at this choosing — sometimes the choosing comes after some angry stomping around. Although frankly ugliest judgments I’ve received have come from other adoptive parents so you know, that’s where I’m coming from.)
I don’t doubt there is grief that I can’t begin to understand having not gone through it myself. I can’t assume how one would feel if I hadn’t experienced it.
But, based on that thought, how can anyone else who hasn’t been in MY SHOES assume to know how I WOULD FEEL?
I don’t assume on their behalf and I’d rather they not assume on mine. I guess that was one of my main points in my post. I can’t dismiss your grief any more than you can dismiss mine.
See, I haven’t yet read anyone dismissing your grief or any adoptive parent’s grief in this conversation. What I’ve read is that people feel the discussion in that newspaper article was one-sided.
There are far more birth parent loss websites than there are adoptive parent loss sites.
Well, how could there NOT be? As Andy wrote, “Losing a potential placement is NOTHING like losing an actual child… it is losing a hope, a dream, a thought… all non-tangible things. A mother who has placed her child has lost a piece of HER. and it cannot be replaced. Not by her next child, not by anything. But potential adoptive parents can grieve (because yes, there is grief and it is hard) and then MOVE ON TO THE NEXT potential placement.”
Hey, no one told me about the long-term repercussions about adopting. No one told me how I would struggle to answer my son’s questions, long for the ability to know his mother, deal with the guilt I always hold, understand how to help my son with his own journey, and be allowed to call myself a “mother” without remembering EVERY TIME that I wasn’t until someone else was.But I did have the ability to do my own research about adoption, talk to adopted people and adoptive parents alike, read books, and find resources to at least help myself do the best that I could. Why expect a birth parent to do any less?? Adoption, on either side, is a huge decision and commitment and I don’t believe it’s SOLELY up to any agency to do 100% of the educating. I believe it IS the SOLE responsibility of the agency to do as much educating that they can, but you can’t take away, for a second, the personal responsibility aspect. Unless you’re, say 11 and pregnant by incest (as mentioned in the original article), and/or you are a CHILD, then it’s not up to anyone other than YOURSELF to take that responsibility.
Krissi, the fact that we (adoptive parents) often feel ill-prepared to deal with the fall-out from adoption is something we should talk about when we talk about reform. I agree with you. As to the rest? That really gets my back up.
1. I was at two bookstores over the weekend and both had a shelf full of adoption books for adoptive parents. I didn’t see one for people contemplating placing their children. Same thing at my local library (although it’s interesting to note that in the poorer neighborhood by my daughter’s old preschool I did see two “so you’re unexpectedly pregnant” books for teenagers, both of which pushed adoption.) So I’d say it’s a little harder to do that research.
2. I counted on my agency to show me the way in a lot of things. That was a luxury that it’s clear expectant parents can’t afford since obviously the agencies show them even less than they show us adoptive parents.
3. Now try going to the search engines. Type in “adoption”, “choosing adoption” and “thinking of placing my baby for adoption.” Tell me how many non-biased sites (i.e., not related to the business of adoption) come up. Who do you think can afford better keyword placement — unbiased adoption sites or adoption businesses? No wonder the search engines are loaded.
4. Say you find a few voices in the wilderness. Say you find the blogs of first parents or some of the keep your baby sites. Now imagine the weight of the people who say that if you place you will be heroic, loving, unselfish, good versus the few small voices who say, “You will also be unbearably sad.”
Considering the way the cards are stacked I can’t condemn any woman who looks back and says, “I wish I had done it differently.” I do believe we are responsible for our choices but I also appreciate how the world sometimes (often) impacts our choices in ways we didn’t expect.
We women get trashed in our reproductive lives: having babies too late to make them without assistance; having them too young; having them with the wrong men; having them and putting them in daycare; having them and spoiling them by staying home; and having them but then giving them up. Yowza. A girl can’t win for trying.
It looks to me like first motherhood is a journey and some women end up in different places — happier or sadder or guiltier or more content. Like anything else, people have to make sense of their own lives and every woman who placed or lost a child through adoption is going to have a different story to tell. But I do know that this industry that gifted me my daughter doesn’t work in a fair and honest manner. I know that. Domestic infant adoption is about getting babies to us — like the lady said, we have the babies. And in that newspaper article, we also have the right to all the tears. Now that’s just getting greedy.
February 19th, 2008 at 4:29 pm
Dawn -
We should somehow combine all these great posts/comments into one!
You said: “See, I haven’t yet read anyone dismissing your grief or any adoptive parent’s grief in this conversation. What I’ve read is that people feel the discussion in that newspaper article was one-sided.”
If you look back to my site (again, sorry for the back and forth) you will find several comments saying, essentially “how dare you say your grief could be equal to a birth parent’s?” I won’t go about quoting everything because that would take ages LOL
As far as #1 - 4 points: I’m not saying that the search for information might be more difficult or harder to come by, but as an adult expectant mother, one must take personal responsibility. Period. And if you want to get me started on that, my general feeling about pretty much the state of the US today is that NO ONE takes personal responsibility for ANYTHING - and this causes problems, such as regret! disappointment! loss! pain and suffering! You get the picture.
I will never argue that just because “its easier to find information as an adoptive parent” equals “as a expectant mother I have less personal responsibility”.
There have been some HUGE mistakes I’ve made in my life that I still pay for a decade-plus later, but no matter what amount of hurt, no matter how severe it is, as an adult I MUST take responsibility for those things AND put myself in an emotional-mental position to move forward in living my life (even if those mistakes haunt me every day…) Don’t get me wrong, I don’t mean “move forward” as in “forget” I mean move forward in life.
As for the rest of it… eh, I mostly agree
February 19th, 2008 at 5:23 pm
“I will never argue that just because “its easier to find information as an adoptive parent” equals “as a expectant mother I have less personal responsibility”.
There have been some HUGE mistakes I’ve made in my life that I still pay for a decade-plus later, but no matter what amount of hurt, no matter how severe it is, as an adult I MUST take responsibility for those things AND put myself in an emotional-mental position to move forward in living my life (even if those mistakes haunt me every day…) Don’t get me wrong, I don’t mean “move forward” as in “forget” I mean move forward in life.”
If what you are seeing is any less than personal responsibility in our blogs about our loss, than you aren’t reading them correctly.
I’m having a real hard time responding to the second part of what I quoted though. I think it comes down to sounding like we deserve our grief because we allowed ourselves to be exploited, suck it up, move forward with your life… which also smacks of those who discuss being exploited or upset by what happened aren’t moving forward with our lives. If this comment is reflective of the types of comments you left for Jenna, I can see why she asked you to stop commenting on her blog.
I wish my words could come together to write a proper response to why I’m upset.
February 19th, 2008 at 5:27 pm
I commented on the last entry but then deleted it…I dunno…lately I’m kinda of burned out hence the rambling and lack of cohesion, but I decided to let it be so here it is (did add the personal resposibility part this time as well as the ending):
This is all so hard because a lot comes to personal experience and perception but for what is worth:
Just about every adoption agency/resource that I’ve looked into has/does cater to the feelings and/or needs of the adoptive parent because that is the desired target/customer/client/whatever and only incidentally to the birth mother and that is probably because they are NEEDED to you know….get the desired product to give to the “paying” client. Does that sound callous? Probably but that is the way it feels/seems like to ME (see..perception) when I look into them…every now and then I’m surprised and instead of getting that icky “come and give us your baby for all these waiting couples” I do get a more balanced and ethical message or ones where the intent is to really help women make good choices, but really…think about it…they are pretty much advertising so they have a lot to gain by not focusing on the birth moms. I’ve looked at the agency and question several times during my research and although I couldn’t stomach the religious undertones (I’m an Agnostic w/ very strong Athiest leanings) their approach to procuring adoptive parents really bothered me. It just isn’t balanced.
As for it becoming taboo to speak against birth moms in the Internet….maybe it is in cerain circles…I don’t know but in the real world (you know…the supermarket, the baby showers, schools, doctor offices, Target) I find it to be the opposite. You have no idea how many times and how many people (from all walks of life…all kinds of different cultural backgrounds and races) have assumed the worst of my daughter’s mom…if she “gave” her up (which by the way isn’t our case….foster care…yet we still have an open adoption) she must be some sort of uncaring, drugged-out, young, stupid, unwed, (it keeps going) woman and they have made horrible inferences and comments and questions that I’ve had to quell (I can be a bitch…strike that…assertive LOL when it comes to telling people to mind their own business or not to insult us) immediately. People in the real world tend to assume the worst (at best she was a young, inexperienced teenager and at worse she was some sort of evil uncaring unnatural woman…oh yeah…and many times shrouded under the guise of “she must be so brave but I could never…”) so see….in the real world people think I’m (the adoptive mom) a saint for “saving a child” and tend to think ill of the birth mom which is why this decision to respect a birth mom’s choice is so darn important. She had the best interest of her child in mind and the couple chose to ignore it and break the agreement.
As for pain comparison…well…I remember catching a lot of grief once when I said that I was getting ready to give my daughter up (at some point we thought she would go back to her first mom and/or birth dad) and that I was hoping that they would let me visit and be part of her life (totally up to them but one can ask right?LOL) like an aunty or something…well…people said that I must not be attached or that I hand’t yet “claimed her” and all kinds of things…but see…this is the thing…and I trully, trully believe this (and please don’t think that it means that I’m not attached to my already 9 yr old daughter) the pain I would have felt for losing her (and believe me you me…it would have brought me to my knees!!!) is nothing to the pain her mother felt when her daughter was taken away and the pain she feels now not having her in her life on a day to day basis (I know this for a fact). And get this for unethical and twisted….once they (the social worker) made a plan for adoption it was hinted several times that if I insinuated that mom was problematic that things would be faster for us…how evil is that! (I turned in the social worker by the way!). The adoption world (I think in all realms…internation, domestic, foster care) is tilted in the favor of adoptive parents…is just is. People’s perceptions are also tilted in a more positive way towards adoptive parents…is just is. We have more to gain and therefore should carry a big part of the responsibility when it comes to doing things in a fair and ethical way even if it means pain.
Ethics…is all about ethics and making the “right” choices. I knew someone in High School who was forced to give up her baby (no, no one put a gun to her head but disapproving parents, agencies that “want” your baby or think you shouldn’t have it because “you are unwed and we have here these two parent housholds” and societal or religious pressures can be just as coersive as a gun to the head) and I can’t even begin to describe to you the pain that it caused and how it changed her….she now has 4 kids and I don’t think there is a day she doesn’t think of her first child….wanna talk about pain….she has never been able to overcome it.
Anyway…just by two (ok…twenbty) cents…as an adoptive parent that has very ambivalent feelings about the whole darn industry/process!LOL Even doing it through foster care has colored my views (I’ve seen the good they’ve done but I’ve also seen how unethically and unfarily they’ve treated parents)…and unless the child was being abused I don’t think they should be separted (you know…because they have lice…or eat out cereal boxes, or are poor, or miss some school, or daddy smokes some pot…none of that will scar them for life - but losing their parents and extended families will!). So see…some things are out of the realm of personal responsibility…when things are done unfarily or in a coersive manner or w/out giving people proper information no amount of personal responsibility or accountability can make up for it….the damage is done. The older I get and the more I parent and the more I long to adopt again the more I see that unless it can be done in a very ethical way that respects all parties it shouldn’t be done at all.
As for names that adoptive parents get called …if you try really hard to separate yourself from it and think about it some times you see a kernel of truth in it. For example, I used to bristle up when I would hear others talk about cultural genocide when you adopt a black child (I’m Hispanic) thinking “a home is a home is a home no matter who provides the love” but the older my daughter gets the more I’m aware of how much she has lost by not being raised by a black family so now although I’m not in total agreement (because of the need) I don’t get defensive when I hear others talk about it. And for what is worth…I have an ideal situation in that I have realtives AND friends who are black so I don’t have to go too far out of my comfort zone to find mentors for her but even then she has lost something incredibly valuable.
By the way…access to information and who controls that information does adversely (or postively) control our decision making process…so if you are trying to place your child and all you get are the reasons why and not much of the reasons why not this can really mess w/ your head and your decision making abilities.
February 19th, 2008 at 5:35 pm
Jeez…I really need to re-read before I post…please pardon all the typos and spelling errors!
February 19th, 2008 at 5:55 pm
Cognitive dissonance at its best.
February 19th, 2008 at 5:59 pm
magicpointeshoe -
I haven’t been reading your blog, but I will now. Always a good thing to have a fresh perspective and learn understanding through the sharing of experience.
“I think it comes down to sounding like we deserve our grief because we allowed ourselves to be exploited, suck it up, move forward with your life…”
I think anyone who has made a major life decision that they’ve later regretted wants to make themselves feel guilty or grieves for the ‘mistake’ they’ve made. I think this is part of learning to move on and live on - not that it ever goes away or lessens in emotional worth - but that it makes us stronger (if we allow it to) and ultimately leads to creating who we are today.
But, yeah, at some point you do have to ’suck it up and move forward’ otherwise you’re just not living. And from my personal point of view, I’d rather be living than not, even if life is a challenge.
February 19th, 2008 at 6:03 pm
Angela, I always always always appreciate your point of view as a very thoughtful mother who had a tough time doing foster-to-adopt. You know I’ve been a fan of yours forever now.
February 19th, 2008 at 6:11 pm
Krissi, I’d say “move forward” means different things for different people and that fighting the good fight via blogging is an activist way of moving forward.
Besides which, it’s ironic that you’re GIVING that advice but are still so upset that adoptive parent grief isn’t honored. I mean, as long as you’re handing out pretty callous advice, you might consider following it yourself so that you don’t get called a hypocrite.
February 19th, 2008 at 7:05 pm
Okay, I’m coming back to try again not that I’m not so crybaby and hot with anger.
My blog archive is junk right now. I need to better tag and reopen entries for public viewing. just an fyi.
Of the birthmothers who blog about their loss, a consistent theme running through ever post is personal responsibility and coming to terms of what our actions or inactions did to lead to our woe and loss. At the same time, running through the same posts is also a battle cry of holding those who exploited us and our children accountable just as much as we hold ourselves accountable. What you imply with your comment here is that we are a big bag of victim that can’t move on with our lives. What I’m saying is that our lives move on, just not in any way shape or form of what was promised or implied to us when we relinquished. But *that* is neither here nor there.
Our blogs usually are for the first purpose of acknowledging the impact that relinquishing our children has had in our lives. What twists me up is the idea that by talking about our grief, our frustrations in how we are represented by media, by getting our knickers in a twist out of others still being exploited in the ways we were, somehow not moving on and living our lives. In “The Girls That Went Away” the author mentioned how many women who relinquished were compelled to work for change for others much more high than she expected.
also…
“but that it makes us stronger”
Sure I can see how others would see that in me since I relinquished. But, it is false. I lost so much of myself when I relinquished, I am not stronger but different. I miss the girl that I was.
February 19th, 2008 at 7:28 pm
You are soo right!
I am a mother who lost my firstborn to adoption in 1968. I have been active in this arena since the 70’s when we were called the “silent” “invisible” side of the triangle. People said aloud, in public hear “any dog can give birth” and it has consistently been assumed that only unfit or uncaring mothers would give up a child: “How COULD she!” Or that we were all “crack whores.” I’ve heard it all
In the 70s, we treaded lightly. The first time Lee Campbell - a bankers wife - and founder of CUB appeared on TV she was in shadow under a pseudonym! Some of us are still in the closet (at least publicly), or in denial, or afraid to speak out. Others like myself speak out all the time and try to bridge gaps with bridges. Still others are very angry! Who wouldn’t be after being the niggardly handmaids of adoption all these many decades?
Some of that anger does get directed toward those who have adopted or are planning to, andhere are the reasons why:
1. Adoption is not a win-win. It’s a win-lose. We are not grateful that someone wants the child. Demand is what creates the multi-billion dollar marketplace and the exploitation and coercion.
Our loss — unlike your loss of fertility, or an adoption that did go forward as you had hoped — is someone else’s gain. We are tired of hearing that it was in our best interest or in the best interest of our children, when many of us know for a fact that that wasn’t the case at all. We are tired of being cast aside after laying the golden egg. We are tired of entering into open adoptions and having them shut down - doors slammed in our faces, phone numbers changed, lied to…duped.
2. Mothers’ anger is often generated by those who do not have a clue about “privilege” and the class ramifications of adoptions. As Solinger has said: “adoption only exists on the backs of resourceless women.” Adoption takes from the poor and gives to the ore affluent. You have to expect backlash.
3. Worse still is when we hear a tone of “entitlement” from those adopting. No one is entitled to or deserves a child! It is not a rght!
80% of children in orphanages worldwide have family who visit and hope to take their child home, as did the family of David Banda, the child Madonna chose to keep. Every adoption begins with a tragedy and is a heartbreak for those of us who know the LIFELONG unresolvable suffering.
Adoption is - or shoudl be - about finding homes for chidlren who are in need, not finding chidlren for childless couples or singles.
Although I have experienced the limbo loss of a child to adoption and the death of a child, I do not assume to know the pain of infertility, misscarriage, or still births. Loss and grief cannot be measured or compared as to which is worse. But infertility is a medical problem - not a social issue - that needs to be resolved with medical treatments and with preventative education. It is NOT resolved by being the recipient of a child that a mother was pressured - because of no alternatives - to let go.
Who bears the reposibility for educating women that they cannot wait until they have their higher education, career, house etc. and then expect their reproductive organs to function as if thye were 20 when they are 40 and 50? Who bears the responsibility to tell young women that STDS, weight, smoking, environmental contaminants, abortions and delayed childbirth all lessen their odds of being mothers?
Where are the books and articles about that?
February 19th, 2008 at 7:37 pm
I would like to add something else very important.
When there is ‘waring’ between the two sets of parents…the real loser is the child put in the middle - like the child in the middle of a nasty divorce.
If you love your child, then you HAVE TO embrace the fact that he has two sets of parents. And you must never, ever speak badly of them or your child will internalize it and it will be just as if you have spoken badly about him!
That includes what you post on the internet as kids are far slicker at us and they could fins your nasty little comments. It even includes things said in in a whisper when you think they are sound asleep. And it includes raised eyebrows.
Their mother - and all of their family of origins - is their biological heritage. Insult them, slight them, and you insult your child.
Let the hear you say — as I have heard many times…we’re glad we adopted from overseas so we don’t have to worry about a birthmother knocking at our door!
February 19th, 2008 at 7:45 pm
[...] an interesting discussion going on over at Dawn’s blog about personal responsibility. Some decent back-and-forths that [...]
February 19th, 2008 at 7:48 pm
“Besides which, it’s ironic that you’re GIVING that advice but are still so upset that adoptive parent grief isn’t honored. I mean, as long as you’re handing out pretty callous advice, you might consider following it yourself so that you don’t get called a hypocrite.”
Hey, I’m just asking why adoptive parents can’t be allowed to experience their own grief in the same way any other parent should be allowed. The end.
And before you start saying I’m hypocritical in my life, obviously you have no idea what I’ve lost, yet moved on for the sake of living. I choose living now rather than living at any other time. And I do follow my own advice, thankyouverymuch.
February 19th, 2008 at 8:02 pm
There was a discussion awhile back about the availability of educational resources for moms dealing with unplanned pregnancy who may consider adoption. I have found, over years, Dawn’s observations about available books, etc. to be accurate, as are her astute observations about the internet. Domain names containing adoption-related terms have been swallowed by adoption moneyed organizations. But that’s only part of it. The more disturbing part, in my view, is that the information is INTENTIONALLY withheld or deemed not relevant/important enough to be as readily available as information geared toward people hoping to adopt. (I believe an entire study on class could branch off from this issue, stepping off from Dawn’s observation about at least a couple of unplanned pregnancy books available in a poorer part of town.) I am typically fairly astute when it comes to research; however, when I was pregnant, I was consumed by all that came with that including being violently ill/bed-ridden with hyperemesis until my fourth month, moving when I was finally well enough, searching for a new job, dealing with the fallout/broken heart of my baby’s father leaving, fallout from parents, and so much more — all while reeling with this previously-incomprehensible love with my yet-born child. I researched to the very best of my ability within this context and, as Nicole mentioned, trusted experts with “Christian values.” I trusted because I had to. I did not have the luxury at that time of not leaning on other human beings. I believe most women who are facing unplanned pregnancies are dealing with similar temporary “crises,” depleting a fair amount of tenacity, reserve, and self-confidence. As humans, we all have these times … when we are utterly vulnerable. It may be due to mental or physical illness or any number of things. Often, when surrender and adoption meet, it is because one woman’s most vulnerable period has met another’s most empowered. A relatively short time after my surrender, I married and my husband and I considered adoption. I had the privilege to consider it and the time to adequately research it. I am certain (because I worked for an adoption agency) there are things I would not have been told by the agency, but there were far more resources available to me as someone considering adoption … as opposed to someone considering surrender.
February 19th, 2008 at 8:24 pm
I’ve only seen “adoptive” parent “loss” personally once. We had friends who had a baby for 72 hours and then the baby’s mother decided against adoption and asked for the baby back. This was within her legal rights. My friends were heartbroken. Everyone around them spoke of the unfairness of the situation and grieved their loss. Still, 15 years later people will talk about the unspeakable horror visited on Bob and Jane. They went on to adopt two more children.
Yet, I’ve never heard anyone talk about how that same kind of grief is what lead the baby’s mother to take her child about. I agree that it is the same grief. But I never hear ANYONE in real life acknowledge that, in this situation or any of those that make headlines.
Instead “adoptive” parents prolong the heartbreak and grief by going to court and waging what is often a futile battle to keep a child. They never consider the grief of the other parents, and neither do onlookers. The “birth” parents are treated as merely a means to a child, or a hurdle to overcome. We rarely get a fully human, fleshed out picture of what it’s like to lose a baby, unless you are an adoptive parent.
I agree on the internet that you are more likely to read blogs about first parent grief than adoptive parent. I think one of the reasons is because people often use blogs to advocate or work out their feelings. There are not only more first parents experiencing grief, but I think they are more vocal about that grief. Maybe they have to shout to be heard because most of the world turns a deaf ear to their pain. This is one of the few ways they can speak without being filtered by the role of unfit mother or martyr.
I sit in a place of luxury and privilege. I have two working adoptions. I have to recognize that my happiness cost 4 other people a huge price. They were all willing to pay that price for their own reasons, but that doesn’t mean I shouldn’t acknowledge it.
February 19th, 2008 at 8:34 pm
The “makes us stronger” idealogy makes me uncomfortable. I was talking to a friend today whose wife is pregnant (she is, of course, also my friend). Their unborn child has a severe heart defect that will require three surgeries upon birth and the ensuing months (with a 60-to-80 % survival rate) and lifelong challenges for the child upon survival. My friend happens to also have clinical depression/anxiety that he knows will be challenged by this. I would never tell him that it will make him stronger because I’ve lived long enough to know that is not always so. I wish it were so. Well into my thirties, I believed that, but I now know otherwise. I know that my friend may be broken by this. Will he love his child? Of course. Will his child grace his life in untold ways, I’m sure of it. Will he learn many valuable lessons, whatever the outcome, absolutely. But if his child does not make it, I know my friend may not make it. That does not make him weak in any way. He’s a fantastic, altruistic guy … who also has a chemical imbalance.
February 19th, 2008 at 8:56 pm
What Angela said, including typos.
Also, this point is true, but irrelevant:
80% of children in orphanages worldwide have family who visit and hope to take their child home
I think in talking about whether adoption can be ethical it must be addressed that OF COURSE birth parents have regret about the failure of their hopes to regain custody of their kids, on top of the agonizing loss of the child(ren).
Most parents who have children in the system here in the US also visit their kids, and hope to get them back. However, around the world, hope is not a plan.
There are reasons that those children are in public care, and it’s insulting to the humanity of their families to personalize those reasons. They are structural, not personal. My kid was not abandoned because her first family was irresponsible, but because they couldn’t win.
Until the structural issues that cause neglect and abandonment are dealt with, children will need permanency planning…not hopeful visits from the people who were screwed by the system into choosing abandonment as their best lousy option.
Ideally, every adoption wold be driven by that reality. In our market-based society, in which we are all consumers first before even being citizens, that’s not how it works, and that stinks.
Orphanages suck, and hungry toddlers eating Spam out of cans their 4 year old big sister opened for them are not a pretty sight either, and we’re a lousy species for not being able to always use adoption as a solution for those kids.
All that said: Hope is still not a plan in this flawed world. I want a better world for my kid and that’s one of the reasons I’m fighting for adoption law reform.
February 19th, 2008 at 9:16 pm
Preview is a good feature to use…
What I was trying to paste in was the point that MagicSomething raised about how there is a lot to be angry about when you realize that, holy crap, that agency LIED to me/us about everything from what the other party would do in terms of visits, photos etc. all the way to how it might feel to me next year/in two years/in 20 years.
Birth moms who have access to blogging self-expression are inherently at a point on the privilege spectrum at which, yeah, you have a lot to be angry about. Because in fact, if your life has worked out to the point where you’re blogging about the relinquishment experience, you might well have been able to parent given proper support for your crisis pregnancy. And that is just lousy. Whether it’s typical or unusual, I don’t know, but it’s one way your life can develop after relinquishment.
So I think there’s a burden on those of us who have adopted, or fostered a child who turned out not to be a permanent placement– regardless of what we were told when he was dirty and crying and hungry and bruised–to recognize that there are good reasons for birth moms to be furious and sad, and that this is a great medium in which to express that toward the end of extracting some accountability from the people who took advantage of them.
In the meat world, no one has EVER said the kind of attempted-damage things that I’ve been told on the intertubes, like that I stole my child, interracial adoption is imperialism, etc. Out there, I’m the hero to the ignorant who don’t know what it cost my child to ‘win the lottery’ this way. In here, someone like the woman who chose to hand my kid off and hope for her future instead of influencing it, is devastated by the loss.
That can’t ever cost me anything I have a right to complain about. Can it?
February 19th, 2008 at 9:25 pm
I have a hard time with the notion of “adoptive parent loss” because of what others have said above: We lose an abstraction if a child’s parent/family decides to parent instead of proceed with an adoption. We don’t lose a child that was OURS in any way, shape, or form beyond a hope and a dream — not biologically, not legally (unless we were led to believe everything was ace when in fact the adoption was improperly conducted, which is another issue entirely). Adoption is not (or should not be) about ensuring that people who want children get them. Adoption should be about providing for the needs of children whose families can’t care for them, period. If a child’s able to stay with their family after all, I say get out the party hats and celebrate. Sure, it’s sad for the prospective adoptive family, but it’s not supposed to be about us in the first place.
I feel like it’s the entitlement problem rearing up again. My husband and I are not entitled to another woman’s child — not because we want a baby, not because it sucks that I can’t grow one, not because we have enough $$ to pay adoption fees and still feed the kid afterward. Yes, we’ll be sad and disappointed for a while if we think a baby’s going to come home with us and it doesn’t happen that way, but so what? That’ll be our personal stuff to process at home, not an injustice perpetrated upon us. Am I supposed to feel the alternative (i.e. a woman placing her child with us against her better judgement or under coercion) is the preferable outcome? Is that the “win-win-win” situation I’m supposed to hope for?
If so, that’s seroiusly f**ked up.
February 19th, 2008 at 10:35 pm
I’m overwhelmed with the way to comment to so many of you, so I’ll do it in-mass.
Some of you are missing my point and twisting it into something that it never was. I think this is probably because the comments are here instead of under my original post (which is fine, the post here is just as valid to discuss). BUT before you begin to assume what I said without reading it, please read it - here are the two links being referenced: http://www.krississippi.com/?p=426 and http://www.krississippi.com/?p=428.
Also if you’re interested in my general feelings about adoption you can read my rarely updated adoption blog http://www.worldadopt.org or just the adoption category on Krississippi http://www.krississippi.com/?cat=68.
Otherwise - I have read and considered what everyone has said. I agree with a lot, I disagree with a little - but over-all I feel reading other’s opinions can never do me any harm, and can only help me be more open-minded. I’m not afraid to see what anyone wants to write about me or my opinions…
“It made me stronger” is something I apply to my own life (albeit not adoption-related) so it is simply the way I see my own life, and possibly a suggestion to others who can experience their own lives in such a way that whatever is hard makes them stronger, or at minimum helps to make them who they are today.
Please feel free to email me or comment on my blog if you’d like to point out something important to you that I’ve missed - even if your opinion and thoughts are completely different from mine. I learn from other’s experiences, too.
misskrississippi (at) gmail (dot com)
February 20th, 2008 at 6:15 am
I’m tired of all of this and I’m really sick of the words back and forth. I’m not sure where this all started from because frankly, it makes no sense to me why you jumped all over Jenna and then made a HUGE post saying a lot of stuff that pissed a lot of people off and now you are still claiming it didn’t start with you (according to what I just read on Dawn’s blog). Let me track this backwards because I’m getting sick of seeing this in my reader:
I just reread Jenna’s post (it’s still in my reader). In it she says NOTHING about Adoptive Parents not having the right to grieve. In fact, she doesn’t say ANYTHING about adoptive parent grief really. She DOES say that she’s pissed that birthparent grief is NOT mentioned in the article, which I’ve reread and truly it is NOT mentioned. Her biff is not that adoptive parent grief was mentioned - her biff is CLEARLY that birthparent grief is NOT mentioned.
I don’t know what you are truly upset about, but I have a feeling it’s nothing todo with Jenna. Because logically, you can’t really have issue with her writing as it is written.
Dawn has said to you:
“See, I haven’t yet read anyone dismissing your grief or any adoptive parent’s grief in this conversation. What I’ve read is that people feel the discussion in that newspaper article was one-sided.”
Your Response:
If you look back to my site (again, sorry for the back and forth) you will find several comments saying, essentially “how dare you say your grief could be equal to a birth parent’s?” I won’t go about quoting everything because that would take ages LOL
My problem with this is that YOU started the topic of “who has more pain”, no one else YOU diminished the truth of the situation and then you sat back and say, “everyone is yelling at me”. NO - we were responded to blatant untruths we found in YOUR statements:
I don’t understand why adoptive parents aren’t allowed to have the same feelings about an adopted child who is removed and returned, as the birth mother/family has in surrendering a child?
Here, you state that adoptive parents should have the SAME grief.
I think we need more of ‘adoption agencies’ providing services such as this.
Here, you side with the enemy, making YOU an enemy to expectant mothers and birth mothers everywhere. Bethany is EVIL and even if you didn’t know that - you DO know the evil that some agencies represent - you should be more careful as to speaking support to someone you know little about. I’m praying that y really don’t mean what you said in this line and frankly, I’d appreciate an apology for this line. You are responsible for your words and if you wnat to be a force of change in the adoption agency, you can start by not supporting such groups, in word, action or deed. Frankly, with this line, you ostrisized a BUNCH of people.
So, I don’t understand why adoptive parents shouldn’t be afforded the same ability to experience grief and loss associated with disrupted adoptions (especially ones that involve the placed child actually being parented for some length of time by the adoptive parents) the same as ANY OTHER PARENT who looses a child.
Here, you call prospective adoptive parents PARENTS. This was WRONG and another source of grief. Yes, you added a caveat to INCLUDE parents who had children in their home for some time, but you did not DISCLUDE perspective parents who actually never had the children in their home. You cannot compare perspective adoptive parent grief to the grief of other parents and it is THIS STATEMENT ALONE that is leading to all the grief you are getting back.
When you say such inflammatory things, it is completely unfair to judge the response statements on their own. Most of the responses here would never been breathed in public if it weren’t for reading your blatantly false, unkind and inflammatory words.
You can’t walk up to someone and go “I hate your hair!” and then when they say, “Well, I hate your hair too!” respond with, “look how mean they are, they said they hate my hair!”.
I love you, but you started this (because Jenna’s post said nothing about any of this that you seem to be “replying” to and your words WERE unkind and untrue. I think that behind it all, you’re just upset in general about the fight for birthmothers to receive more recognition for their grief and you are stinging from times that people WHO ARE NOT ME OR JENNA (or anyone that I know) have been unkind in reference to your words.
The problem here is that you are taking the actions of a few and then adding to the problem by using your words aimed at ALL OF US. And ALL OF US have done none of the above. And certainly, even the actions of a few do not warrant the birthmother hate I’m seeing here. And as the person who can see EVERYONE’s point, I’m hurt by a lot of what I’ve read.
February 20th, 2008 at 7:37 am
Okay, I’m going to write this response after only one cup of coffee, which is probably a huge mistake.
I agree with pretty much everything you’ve said, particularly the part about how things might be reaching for “politically correct” here on the interwebs, but out in day to day life, there’s nothing of the sort.
That being said, in discussions in the blogs, amidst a whole lot of other things that are wrong and most of them being wrong to the first mothers, there is *one* spot of recurring unfairness that I keep seeing towards *both* first parents and adoptive parents, usually perpetrated on them by the other parts of the triad. That is the expectation of rationality in grief.
People who are grieving aren’t generally rational. The unhappiness oozes out of them like radioactive waste, and the cleanup is messy and disgusting and genuinely painful to witness. People who are grieving often say stupid insensitive things that in two or three months, or a year, or five years, they’ll look back on with some distance and feel shame. It strikes me as unfair to *anyone* who is grieving to treat their statements as their well-reasoned long-considered opinions. They’re trying to deal. Dealing is ugly.
So I generally think it’s a bad idea to try to rationally reason with someone who is in an irrational (and probably necessary) space. It doesn’t do credit to either side.
Those are my under-coffeed thoughts. Take them for what they are.
February 20th, 2008 at 10:23 am
There’s so much I could respond to here, but I’ll keep this simple. I especially like this from you, Dawn, and I totally agree with it:
Frankly (and I know this is unpopular to some) I think that we adoptive parents have more room to give here.
I do think we have more room to give here. In this triad, we are the “privileged” class. Actually, there don’t even need to be quotes there. We ARE the privileged class, no matter how some might disagree with that statement. So, yes, while we have our issues and things don’t always go swimmingly, it would be much more honest to at least admit that we have more room to give.
I also like and totally agree with this:
See, I haven’t yet read anyone dismissing your grief or any adoptive parent’s grief in this conversation. What I’ve read is that people feel the discussion in that newspaper article was one-sided.
That’s all I’ll say at this point. I left a comment on Krissi’s site where I also agreed with everything Nikki said — the same comment as the one she left here which I think outlines things quite articulately.
And I say this with love and friendship to Krissi. Truly, I do.
February 20th, 2008 at 1:22 pm
Finally, I had a chance to respond and Judy’s already said the main gist of what I was going to. The comment that was an epiphany for me in this whole conversation was “Frankly (and I know this is unpopular to some) I think that we adoptive parents have more room to give here” made by Dawn.
Things aren’t always easy (hardly ever, no matter what!) no matter which side of adoption you are on. And sometimes it still hurts to hear what feels like a generalization about ALL people who adopt when I work so hard to be different than the general perception. But that’s my issue, not anyone else’s.
I also can admit here that whatever issues of loss I have, they are only related to adoption in the fact that the open adoptions we committed ourselves to when we decided to adopt, that we still long to happen if they would, haven’t worked out how we would have liked them to, at all. And I grieve that loss of relationship. But I still have my kids and will never complain about how hard all this is/will be to explain to them, including some of the really, really rough stuff of their stories.
I do have loss and pain, but it is not adoption-related and that’s been a huge lesson for me to learn, to work hard (and it ain’t always easy) to not take offense, but more to listen and learn and do what I can to allow others whose loss related to adoption is very real, and very raw and not something they get over but may be something that empowers them (often through anger!) to lead a change so that others don’t have to go through what they do. It’s the voice I need to hear, to keep things in perspective. Sometimes the voices of parents who relinquished their children are hard to hear, but it is about time they are heard.
February 20th, 2008 at 2:10 pm
Nikki Jo -
Nikki Jo -
I’m tired of all of this and I’m really sick of the words back and forth.
Me too, which is why this will be my last comment on this blog for the sake of hoping it will die down - I’ve said what I’ve needed to say, I’ve repeated what I’ve said, and now I’m just tired of repeating (correcting?) what I’ve said. If anyone needs to know what I think or what I’ve said, then hey, they can come find my ORIGINAL POSTS on MY BLOG and criticize them instead of the convoluted process this has turned into.
“I’m not sure where this all started from because frankly, it makes no sense to me why you jumped all over Jenna”
Why is this about Jenna? I didn’t write about Jenna, I wrote about my opposing opinion to a post in her blog. She could’ve been anyone on any blog. Yes, I used a quote that she said, and quotes from the original article, but I have done no personal criticizing, bashing or deliberate feeling-hurting. I did say I didn’t understand her point of view - but how is that critical?
I could’ve made some big assumptions and then criticized her for writing or having a different opinion from mine, but I didn’t. AND THAT WAS THE POINT - I don’t understand someone else’s experience/feelings/emotions no more than they can understand (and assume) mine.
“In it she says NOTHING about Adoptive Parents not having the right to grieve.”
Right, it didn’t. Like the original article didn’t dismiss anyone’s feelings, either. However what SHE said turned the quoted paragraph INTO a dismissal of a birth mother’s feelings when it clearly didn’t dismiss ANYONE’S.
“My problem with this is that YOU started the topic of “who has more pain”, no one else YOU diminished the truth of the situation…
I have not said ANYONE has more pain. I have said “your pain can’t be judged by me, like mine can’t be judged by you”. Where have I said someone has more pain than someone else? Yes, a lot of other commenter have, but I haven’t.
“…and then you sat back and say, “everyone is yelling at me”.”
Um, no I haven’t. Go ahead and yell, I keep continuing to say to many (most?) comments that whatever the opinion I feel I learn something from it, I better myself from seeing someone else’s point of view and their thoughts are just as valid as mine.
“I think we need more of ‘adoption agencies’ providing services such as this.
Here, you side with the enemy, making YOU an enemy to expectant mothers and birth mothers everywhere.”
If you read what I wrote, you would realize that I was referring to the expectant mother services Bethany claims to provide, not to the agency itself. I based my words on the original article only. The review in the blog was about the article, and I reviewed the review… I didn’t go about reviewing the agency because that would be another completely and totally different topic of discussion.
So, I’m sorry, I love you too, but I won’t apologize for something I said that means no more than what I read in the article (and the blog post) I was referring to.
“Here, you call prospective adoptive parents PARENTS.”
I haven’t called any ‘prospective’ adoptive parents, PARENTS. I think in this one line that you quoted from me, it is possible the only line where I didn’t refer to those parents who have received and parented a child who was later returned.
For the record: One is not an ‘adoptive parent’ until the adoption is final and legal. One is not an ‘adoptive parent’ while a child is in utero and an expectant mother is considering placement. One is not an adoptive parent at any point during the process until they are signed, stamped and certified as the child’s parents. One only becomes an adoptive parent after another parent has become one first.
Also for the record: One is not a birth mother until one has surrendered to adoption. One is an “expectant mother” while a child is in utero regardless if the mother is considering adoption or not. One is a MOTHER when one is pregnant with child, has given birth to said child, and parents said child. One is STILL A MOTHER even after an adoption has taken place (signed, stamped and certified). Once a mother, always a mother.
“you did not DISCLUDE perspective parents who actually never had the children in their home. You cannot compare perspective adoptive parent grief to the grief of other parents”
I did most certainly DISCLUDE ‘perspective parents’ because I wasn’t talking about them. They aren’t parents. They aren’t entitled to “adoptive parent grief” - they haven’t adopted. So I’m not comparing them to ANYONE in my blog posts.
And this is something that has gotten convoluted in the blogging cross-posting. If you read WHAT I WROTE ON MY BLOG I don’t talk about ‘perspective’ parents, I talk about adoptive parents who have an adopted child who is then returned.
I did say “any other parent,” but again, referring to the above - I believe you’re not a parent if you’re NOT A PARENT. Why is that hard to understand? I know others might feel they are parents when they clearly are not. But that’s their issue and stupidity. For the sake of my blog post, I didn’t include them.
“reading your blatantly false, unkind and inflammatory words.”
What have I said that is false? Unkind? INFLAMMATORY?? If anything I have said “YOU AND I ARE NOT THE SAME, WE CAN NOT ASSUME TO KNOW EACH OTHER’S FEELINGS THE SAME” - how is THAT inflammatory??? I’d like to think it’s pretty opposite.
“I think that behind it all, you’re just upset in general about the fight for birthmothers to receive more recognition for their grief”
Again *big sigh* Not at all. I think birth mothers deserve to tell their stories, I believe they SHOULD tell their stories, and I think if more people were open-minded to what they have to say, then the so-called ‘adoption reform’ would be going a whole lot smoother.
You know what? I don’t get much recognition for my place in adoption and I’m actually relieved. My son’s adoption story is not mine to tell - it’s his.
I’ve chosen to move away from adoption advocacy (read: not participate in internet discussions very often) and writing about adoption more often than not. I don’t need to, it’s not the biggest issue in my life, it’s just part of my life. Read my blog - how often do I talk about adoption compared to a jumble of other things? Not often. Because I don’t choose to or need to or even want to.
But when a blog post comes along that I feel is important, I’m gonna voice my opinion… and since I’ve been asked not to comment on that particular blog, where else can I speak my mind but on my own? I left the comment (nearly verbatim) on Jenna’s blog knowing it wouldn’t ever see the light of day… but I did that so she would know that I was at least respectfully giving her the first opportunity to read what I wrote, before it went in my own journal.
“I’m hurt by a lot of what I’ve read.”
Nikki Jo, of all the people who I know can see many sides, I feel in this case you’re not. I don’t say that out of intent to hurt you, I say that because you are referring to so many things that I haven’t even said - but others have implied. Yes, I’ve responded to some of those implications, but with the (fully disclosed) intent to learn from them.
The thing that is hard for me is that the comments about my original post have spread to other blogs, where while I haven’t been misquoted by the blog posters, I have been misquoted and misunderstood by the commenter’s simply based on the fact that they are commenting on THAT BLOG POST and NOT MY BLOG POST.
And that, I think, is the root of the issue. It’s unfortunate, but that’s where it stands.
I’m sorry if you’ve been hurt by what others have said, I’m even more upset if you’re hurt what I’ve said. But, in this case, I stick by what I’ve written in my blog and my opinion.
February 20th, 2008 at 2:27 pm
Krissi, you posted your entries here in their entirety in the comments section. And I’ve read you in both places. I’m not misunderstanding you — we have a fundamental difference of opinion and your opinion is offensive to me and clearly to others.
You feel my disagreement with you stems from a misunderstanding. I’m telling you, I understand you and I still disagree with you.
February 20th, 2008 at 2:39 pm
Then I guess we disagree - I’m OK with disagreeing with that, because I don’t want my feelings or my right to them to be dictated to me by anyone.
February 21st, 2008 at 2:50 am
I’ve been reading all of this and I have to say one thing: The adoptive mom’s joy came from her ABILITY to be willing, ready and able to parent a child. The bmom’s pain came from her INABILITY to be willing, ready and able to parent a child from the time it was conceived. Whose fault is it? No ones. Adoption is here to stay, and just because one can make a baby doesn’t mean they’re the right ones to raise them. Adoption isn’t the reason why mothers place or families are “broken up”. The lack of being able, willing and ready to parent a child is.
Privilege is a word that has been used loosely (imo) many parents who adoptive AREN”T rich, they have WORKED hard to save their money to be able to adopt a child. If fact, they followed the “rules” of society and WORKED so they could have a life of comfort and stability. Why should they feel “guilty” because they are able, willing and ready to be parents without government assistance?
February 21st, 2008 at 7:19 am
Andrea, I don’t have time to write more right now because I have to leave soon to take my kids to a homeschool thing and I’ve got scads of work on my plate. But you must be a newbie here otherwise you’d know that I don’t truck with that sentiment here on my blog and you’ll find no support for your opinions from me or from my regular readers. I reject these “rules” that say you have to be this, that or the other thing before you get to be a parent. I didn’t follow rules that my daughter’s mom rejected — I just got lucky.
I started having sex younger than she did. And I slept around a lot more, too. Fortunately I’m not all that fertile so I never had to deal with a crisis pregnancy. See, you misunderstand what privilege means (it’s not always material). Privilege is “a special advantage or immunity or benefit not enjoyed by all.” Advantage. Immunity. Benefit. Like having all of the adoption information and resources targeted to building OUR families. Like being in a position people say is good enough for parenting. Like not having people tell us that we are unwilling, unready and unable to parent a child because we don’t follow a bunch of rules.
February 21st, 2008 at 9:51 am
Timestamp: 2:50:29
Visitor’s time: 11:50:29 (info from a couple of birthmom’s sitemeters)
Linked from: A birthmom’s blog
IP: The infamous one
“Andrea,” it is this time.
A “novelty” and a baby maker. Nice. Still trying to define another human being’s reality. No, in fact, it’s up to me to say where my “pain” came from — not you — and I know quite well, thank you: from being lied to, intentionally decieved, and uttelry coerced. I was more than willing and ready to parent. I wanted very much to do so and made this very clear. Furthermore, I had the ABILITY to do so … save one thing: I did not have the financial resources you were provided (assuming you are the owner of the infamous IP). Not because I had not worked any harder than you, but because I did not receive the copious parental financial aide/support (and subsidies) as you did.
If you’ve got something to say to me, do it in a mature, straightforward manner rather than following me around. Do it without absolutes and self-assigned “rules.” If you’ve got something to say, owner of the infamous IP, you know my email addy.
February 21st, 2008 at 10:03 am
“A “novelty” and a baby maker. Nice. Still trying to define another human being’s reality. No, in fact, it’s up to me to say where my “pain” came from — not you — and I know quite well, thank you: from being lied to, intentionally decieved, and uttelry coerced. I was more than willing and ready to parent. I wanted very much to do so and made this very clear. Furthermore, I had the ABILITY to do so … save one thing: I did not have the financial resources you were provided (assuming you are the owner of the infamous IP). Not because I had not worked any harder than you, but because I did not receive the copious parental financial aide/support (and subsidies) as you did.”
Then you weren’t able to parent your child. Whose fault is that? It’s your fault, not society’s.
P.S. I don’t believe anyone is entitled to any subsidies once they decide to bring a child into the world. Unless you were injured on the job or in accident, it’s YOUR responsibility as a PARENT to provide for your child-not the governments! Why do you think people follow the “rules” and wait until they are ready, willing and able to parent a child. it’s called be responsible!
February 21st, 2008 at 11:22 am
TO “T”: JUST TO BE CLEAR–I AM NOT ANDREA. I HAVE NOT POSTED ON THIS BLOG OR ANY OTHER BLOG IN MONTHS. IP CHECKING CAN BE NOTORIOUSLY INACCURATE. I HAVE NOTHING I WANT TO SAY TO YOU, EXCEPT STOP MAKING ASSUMPTIONS AND LEAVE ME ALONE, PLEASE.
February 21st, 2008 at 11:40 am
NLB/Lou Lou Belle/BVM/TP/various anonomouses: There is copious proof of your years-long cyberstalking campaign, copious proof that you continue commenting to my very few (and months-apart) comments, under various names/identities, showing up in just the nick of time after your other monickers. You leave me alone, please. Once and for all.
February 21st, 2008 at 11:44 am
p.s. I have nothing to say to you other than what I just did, and would like you to stop loitering on my business website. Thank you.
February 21st, 2008 at 11:53 am
I AM NOT LOU LOU BELLE. YOU PERSIST IN ATTRIBUTING POSTS TO ME THAT I DID NOT MAKE, AND WHICH DID NOT REPRESENT WHAT I THINK. I HAVE NO IDEA WHO LOU LOU BELLE IS. I AM NOT INTERESTED IN WHAT YOU HAVE TO SAY, AND HAVEN’T COMMENTED ON ANY POST BY YOU IN POSSIBLY A YEAR. I’D HAVE TO CHECK.
PS IT IS NOT CYBERSTALKING TO READ WHAT ANOTHER IS POSTING ABOUT ONE, ESPECIALLY WHEN IT IS LIES. IT IS SELF-DEFENSE TO KEEP AWARE OF ANOTHER’S PLOTS.
February 21st, 2008 at 11:55 am
I DON’T LOITER ON YOUR BUSINESS WEBSITE. MAYBE SOMEONE ELSE AT MY HOME IS LOOKING AT THE PHOTOGRAPHS THERE. I AM NOT GOING TO ENGAGE IN ANY MORE BACK AND FORTH WITH YOU ON DAWN’S BLOG, SO YOU CAN STOP POSTING TO ME AND ABOUT ME RIGHT NOW.
February 21st, 2008 at 12:09 pm
[...] left this in response to an ignorant comment (scroll down at your own risk): Privilege is “a special advantage or immunity or benefit not [...]
February 21st, 2008 at 1:02 pm
(Sorry about this, Dawn.) You can stop posting to and about me right now. You’ve proven yourself someone capable of immense deceit, over and over, and I believe nothing you say. (Everyone knew LLB was you. Your infamous IP was the only one on at times “she” posted and the theme was the same as always.) Plots? Yes, speaking about my feelings anonymously or under a screen name on a birthparent blog, private email group, or venue is a plot, that’s right. Egad. That’s utterly nuts. That precicely fits into cyberstalking profiles I’ve read about. The minute I post, even if it’s been months, you are there … over and over.
And I can tell when it’s you on my website because of the browser. It’s different when it’s someone else. Lies? No. Anyone who knows me will adamantly say that’s not my style. Rather, it has been your vast territory from early on. I don’t want to engage you on Dawn’s blog either (or anywhere for that matter). But, Lord knows, I’ve walked away from your repeated blog and birthparent venue hijackings, over and over, for a matter of years. I will do so again now out of respect for Dawn.
February 21st, 2008 at 1:11 pm
Yo, T, you’re an honored guest when you comment here. Seriously, I have serious rock star feelings about you, which I hope you know. You are welcome to engage whenever and whomever you choose. And you are also welcome to ignore ‘em for your own sake. (I’m sorry that said stalker person sees fit to come on by here and give you attitude.)
February 21st, 2008 at 1:26 pm
Dawn - I am curious, what do you feel is behind that kind of attitude? Ignorance? Anger? Denial? Bliss?
I often wonder what is gained by those adoptive parents (besides the obvious - our children) who like to blame the victims in adoption (or refuse to believe there are victims).
As an adoptive parent (and progressive one who sees all sides) I would love your commentary on what motivates The Andrea type of comments. Are they feeling guilty over their adoption? Hiding an unethical adoption? Have not yet come to terms with their infertile status? Is it cognitive dissonance?
As someone who WAS indeed very much capable and desirous of of parenting her child, yet sent away and threatened with lawsuits so that my baby could be obtained and later sold to the highest bidder, I always find myself wondering why is that fact so hard for some adoptive parents to truly grasp? It has to be a fear based response, no?
Would love it if you could comment. It baffles me.
February 21st, 2008 at 7:37 pm
Oh. The “Personal Responsibility” card, again.
Sigh.
You know what? I have a lot to say about this, and a post lurking in my drafts about this precise thing.
But just for anyone interested, for now, until I can stop being angry and actually articulate the rest of my post? Check out my blog. I am a first mother. I have regret. NOWHERE in my blog are you going to find a post where I deny my own responsibility for what happened in and leading up to placement of my daughter. If you do, please feel free to point it out to me. I’m happy to discuss it.
February 21st, 2008 at 8:12 pm
Oh boy, this got out of hand, didn’t it? I barely have time to read your whole post, let alone all these comments. Wow. I’m glad commenter comment count is back
February 22nd, 2008 at 7:54 am
I am an adoptive mom in an open adoption and although I am very familiar with these issues and know Dawn fairly close in a cyber way and she knows quite a bit about my situation, I generally stay away from even reading these discussions. Too hard for too many reasons. And my own personal experience with adoption creates a different kind of cognitive dissonance for me because my experience often challenges my very liberal, progressive values and assumptions about the world and people. Maude, I know I am not giving enough info to make sense. I am just trying to say that intellectually and in terms of my values, I completely agree with Dawn and the hard thing for me is that I have a very open adoption in which it became clear to me over the years that my daughter’s first mom *doesn’t* actually take responsibility for the havoc and pain she created and continues to create in all her children’s lives [she has 5 -- none living with her now.] So, although I know she grieves the adoption deeply, seeing first hand how painful and damaging her actions have been to her children, well… let’s just say my empathy tank for her has finally run dry. After 4 years of knowing her.
HOWEVER, I do NOT generalize from my experience at all. And I refrain from sharing our story for the most point — in cyberland or in person, because, in part, I don’t want others to generalize from our experiences.
Mostly what I wanted to say here is that the following quote from Mirah, above, is probably the most straightforward and absolutely true thing I have ever heard about adoption and I agree 100%:
“Adoption is - or should be - about finding homes for chidlren who are in need, not finding chidlren for childless couples or singles. ”
Thank you for this Mira.
February 24th, 2008 at 11:53 am
[...] at Dawn’s blog there have been some ongoing discussions about what leads women to surrender their children, why first parents blog, and what [...]