When I was working at the shelter, I went through training with the Oregon State Extension Services to teach parenting classes. See, if I agreed to volunteer to teach them at rec centers then I could take the classes for free, which was a good thing because the shelter didn’t really have a budget for training. This is how I ended up teaching parenting classes before I was a parent.
The curriculum, which was great and is still taught at various extension services and resource centers (including this one) was called “Discipline that Doesn’t Hurt” and was developed by a woman whose name, sadly, I forget. Linda something. It worked something like this:
–Each parent would make a list of family values that were important to them and then we’d discuss. For some parents, having a respectful child is more important than having a creative child and for some parents it’s the other way around. We’d talk about how values aren’t right or wrong and that one family’s values don’t have to work for anyone else. It is absolutely reasonable to care more about this than that and it’s also absolutely reasonable to care more about that than this.
–Then we’d take an incident that requires discipline. And here, we’d choose a specific incident not a general thing that drives you nuts. So, say, we’d pick something like, “Bobby, age 4, flipped out on Tuesday before preschool when it was time to put on his shoes.”
–Then we’d talk about the family value that this behavior was running up against. Let’s say a parent really valued obedience and another parent really valued punctuality. The parent who values obedience might have a different reaction (and solution) to this shoe dilemma than would the parent who valued punctuality more.
–Then the group would look at our child development info (charts about child development and for greater depth, we recommended my old faves Ames & Ilg, natch!) and the group would discuss. Is Bobby’s behavior something that you might expect from a 4-year old? Is this developmentally appropriate? (Not meaning appropriate behavior as in acceptable behavior but appropriate behavior as in this is the kind of thing that many 4-year olds might do.) Once we established whether or not this was developmentally appropriate, we’d discuss whether or not it changed how the parent felt about the behavior. Sometimes it did and sometimes it didn’t. Sometimes the parent would say, “Well, I guess a kid who eats all his vegetables isn’t really THAT important to me.” Or they might say, “I get that most kids this age are picky eaters but I still need mine to eat his vegetables.” Also understanding the child development behind the challenge might drive solutions. If a parent understands that 4-year olds like to have a lot of control, that can help them figure out what to do next.
–We would also look at that particular child’s particular situation. Maybe Bobby skipped breakfast that day. Or maybe Bobby was unhappy with the seams on those particular socks. That was our reason for picking an actual event instead of a general one; sometimes the solution was something very specific like “buy Bobby socks without itchy seams.”
–Then we’d brainstorm ideas. They’d range from the ridiculous to the reasonable; we’d just try to get a lot up there.
–Finally we’d ask the parent who brought up the dilemma to discuss which solutions might work for them and why and why certain others wouldn’t. So one of the solutions might be, “Let the child wear slippers to preschool” and that might totally work for one parent who valued creativity and punctuality but wouldn’t work for another parent who valued obedience and punctuality.
The process helped parents get a handle on what they needed, on what their kids needed and helped them stretch their expectations. Hearing from a parent who might let their kid wear slippers to school wouldn’t necessarily encourage a parent to stretch that far, but it might help them see that having 4-year old kids put their shoes on is a common dilemma and that there are more than one solution to the problem.
It was a great program and I was lucky to learn it and to teach it. I don’t use it in that step-by-step way but I have internalized it. I’ve also internalized The Book that Changed My Life, which was on our bibliography. That book is: How to Talk so Kids Will Listen and Listen so Kids Will Talk. I’m sure I’ve written about it before but that was pre-Madison.
The book basically teaches the value of reflective listening and gives parents the tools to not only hear what their kids are saying but how to react in a way that doesn’t escalate the situation and helps the child move to the next stage towards a resolution. It also has comics so if you have a partner who doesn’t want to read whole parenting books (not that I have anyone specific in mind [Brett]) they can at least look at the comics and see how it works. You can get a sense of their advice by reading their Q&As here. (If you hadn’t noticed already, you will recognize their influence on me after checking that page out!)
As I noted, I didn’t have kids when I first picked up the book but I did have clients. I was 23, working at a women’s shelter and I was intimidated by a lot of the women I was working with. They were (mostly) older and many of them were confrontational and came from backgrounds I couldn’t understand (and that also sometimes scared me). I was working the swing shift then and so I was responsible for monitoring curfews, which meant I was often in the position of handing out a rule violation to a woman who was coming home late. If a client got three rule violations she lost her place in shelter so handing them out was never ever fun; I hated it. Also? The exceptions to rule violations were few and far between and the only person authorized to rescind them was the respective client’s case manager. We resident assistants just had to hand ‘em out and tell them to take up any argument with their case managers.
Anyway, one night a particular client was past curfew for the second time and I knew I’d be greeting her at the elevators with a little slip of paper for her to sign. Having witnessed her tantrum when she got the first violation, I knew I was in for it. Fortunately I’d been to my parenting classes training and I’d read How to Talk.
This is how I’d normally have handled it:
“I’m going to need to give you a rule violation because you’re a half hour late.” (said in a confrontational tone)
“Well the bus was late.”
“That’s not my problem. You should have caught an earlier bus.”
“How was I know it was supposed to be late? Am I supposed to be responsible for the bus schedule now, too?”
“If you have a problem with this, you need to see E. first thing in the morning. You can sign up for an appointment on the sheet on her door.”
“Are you serious?!? You know she hates me! You just have a problem with me because of XYZ! Well, I’m going to report YOU! You think I care about your lousy rule violation!?!” and so on and so on, screaming down the hall just DARING me to give her another one for being disruptive and get her thrown out.
Awkward much?
This is (more or less) how it really went down with the power of The Book:
“I’m going to need to give you a rule violation because you’re a half hour late.” (said in a neutral tone)
“Well the bus was late.”
“I know how frustrating it must be to get a rule violation when you feel like it’s not your fault. I have to go by the rules though so I have to give it to you.”
“How was I know it was supposed to be late? Am I supposed to be responsible for the bus schedule now, too?”
“I know it seems unfair.”
“It IS unfair!”
“I get that. You can talk to E. in the morning if you want to discuss it with her. She’s got her appointment sheet on the door if you want to sign up there.”
“Do you think she’ll take it back?”
“Probably not but you can try.”
“Next time I should probably catch an earlier bus.”
“That sounds like a good idea.”
“Well, good night.”
And she left! Just like that! Went down to the kitchen to make herself a snack and didn’t give me a hard time at all!
I realized something then. I realized that when I heard her, she felt like I was on her side and she understood that my goal wasn’t to catch her screwing up; my goal was to help her follow our program. Suddenly I wasn’t the enemy. Suddenly the rules weren’t something I was using just to punish her. Instead, they were just the rules.
I mean, it worked like magic. I remember how I felt when she simply said good night and left — I felt like I’d found the key to interpersonal communication because I had. At that point, I became a total convert and I kept on practicing until it became second nature.
I recognized that when I didn’t feel like reflecting that it was usually about me wanting to best the other person instead of getting to a solution. Sometimes it felt like giving in to say, “I understand what you’re saying” but if I could remember my larger goal of getting us to a better place, it became less hard.
And this book also informed my writing. Very often I start something out by saying, “I see the other side to this and I get it but this is how it seems to me.” That’s from reading The Book.
Later in my senior year at college, I took a class on mediation and conflict resolution and was surprised at how many of the techniques there were ones I already knew from How to Talk. I’m telling you; this shit is powerful. And it still informs my parenting every single day.
Related posts:
I’ve been thinking I need to reread it myself (also Siblings Without Rivalry, useful for people like me who don’t have any siblings but have to parent them and need a manual.) You’re very lucky that you digested it all before you had kids. I didn’t, and I grew up in a household where feelings weren’t discussed, so it is not second nature to me. I sometimes think I need to write on my hand “Respond to the emotions causing the behavior, not the behavior itself” so I remember.
OK, I just put the book on hold at the library. Can’t wait to recognize your parenting when I read it =)
In what I think is the same caliber/ kind of book, I have learned a lot from “Parent Effectiveness Training”- Thomas Gordon, first published in 1970-.
He also has a Teacher Effectiveness training book, and I have been trying to internalize both in order to try to get what listening really means, both as a parent and as a teacher. Reading his books, I often wanted to go back in time to do over some dialogues I had with former students. And yes, internalizing at this point means reading the books again and again and again…
That was in the bibliography of the training, too, but I’ve somehow managed to never read it! I used to see it at thrift stores a lot — I will keep an eye out for it now!
I also find this is a good book for improving romantic relationships. Or maybe it’s just because my partner is a BIG BABY, as well as someone who hasn’t bothered to even look at the cartoons yet, so I need to encourage her again. I too love this book.
I ordered the book even before I finished reading the post (and in spite of the fact that I can’t afford to by any books right now
or ever 
.
I’m putting this at the top of my to-read pile as well. Thanks so much for this post. I needed this.
I’m in the middle of re-reading it right now. It’s such good stuff and I really believe in it, but the internalizing has been slow for me. Every time I think I’m getting better at it, some other short-tempered, controlling, obstinate part of me rears its head.
Have you read Ginott’s “Between Parent & Child” that the authors say was some of the foundation of their book? It’s been sitting in my stack forever, but I keep skipping over it for some reason. I’d love to hear what you think of that one, if you’ve read it.
I have read it and also Between Teacher and Child and F&M’s Liberated Parents, Liberated Children, which came before How to Talk. How to Talk is the distilled version, really. I’ve liked the other ones for different reasons but as far as what they have to say and how to do it, How to Talk is everything you need and the rest are just interesting. I think I still have my Haim Ginott’s books somewhere downstairs but I’m not sure if they made it through all the culling I’ve done over the last couple of moves.
When I first started using some of what they say, I felt very stiff and afraid I’d sound condescending but it just works so well especially if you buy in to the whole idea of it (it’s hard to sound condescending if you really sincerely are offering sympathy/empathy, I think, so that worry went by the wayside pretty soon).
I do feel fortunate that I got to work it all out pre-parenthood just so that by the time Noah came along, it was easy to keep up with it and I credit that book and those theories for the good communication I’ve got with my kids. Also? It buys time when I’m not sure how to react when one of them lays something heavy on me.
Working there must have been one heck of a powerful experience for a 23-year-old. Wow.
The book sounds great — I’ll check it out! Between Parent & Child is a big fave of mine, and I recognize a lot of my parenting in what you write, so I have no doubt I’ll love it. Thanks for the rec.
Another, related thing that I do that works well in relationships of all sorts, anytime there’s a conflict or a hurt feeling to sort out — when I approach the other person about it, I make sure I am crystal-clear that I am talking about how *I* feel, not what they meant, their motive, and so on. It is much easier for someone else to hear and respond to “When you did X, it made me feel like you weren’t respecting my wishes about Y,’ rather than “When you did X, you weren’t respecting my wishes about Y.”
(Somehow I bet some of this is in your book!) Can’t wait to read it.
Checked it out of the library, now on Chapter 2. Thanks SO MUCH, Dawn!
I LOVE that book. It bears rereading every so often. It works great when you’re in the space to use it (and, of course, when you’re tense and shut down yourself… that’s, um, much less effective.) Works well with husbands/partners too.
More coincidences… I also worked in a women’s shelter before I had kids, and I also taught those kind of parenting classes, though not ’til I had kids.
I was the grateful recipient of some “How to Talk” technique when I went to the hospital after having my first home birth. Hospital staff were not happy that I’d birthed at home, and called the police and child services. They were about as rude as they could be. The very last nurse I had, though, as she wheeled me out the door, kindly said “I know this isn’t how you were hoping to spend these hours”. And voila! That little 12-word validation did so much to make me feel better. SOMEONE got it.
How to Talk is a great book, and two others that made my life worth living are “Parenting your Spirited Child” and “Positive Discipline for Preschoolers.” “Siblings W/O Rivalry” also works wonders.
Thank you for this book recommendation. I’m putting it on hold at the library. I have noticed that whenever I have the patience to “hear” the kids and to restate what I think they are saying, it does work like magic.
I had no idea you worked at a shelter. Must have been challenging but fascinating as well. Can’t wait to hear more about it.
I’m young. No kids yet. But I picked up the book housesitting a few years ago after seeing it mentioned on a bunch of blogs. it blew my mind, and i use it all the time. i’m working in a customer service job right now, and you’re right, it’s like magic.
“i know it’s really frustrating to feel like you’re being ignored. i’m sorry your earlier email didn’t get answered until yesterday. how can we work together to get your problem fixed?”
I can not tell if I haven’t internalized it enough or what. I want to like the book. I read it when my oldest (now
was about 3. And she never followed the script. I’d offer empathy and she’d stick to her point. She also usually outwits the choices parents are supposed to offer their children to avoid conflict. Even her day care when she was 2~ pointed that out – she usually chose neither or both.
I re-read the book. It’s a little better. It works OK with my 5 year old. But the 8 year old just doesn’t seem wired that way. Having used it for a long time, have you found any exceptions?
Well, I think there are a lot of different kinds of people in the world so even though it’s worked for me pretty much universally, I sure haven’t used it with all the people who exist!
Loved this post. We call this technique all different kinds of things in my work field–stuff like “validation” and “recovery oriented services” and stuff. As you noted it can also be called plain old good interpersonal communication skills.
And it works for parenting and mental health and spouses and friends and all kinds of relationships!
And speaking of spouses mine is calling, so good night.
[...] 24, 2009 by allyo Dawn has a great post about how the book How to Talk so Kids will Listen and Listen so Kids will Talk and how it changed [...]