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	<title>Comments on: Suz&#8217;s wish is my command</title>
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	<link>http://www.thiswomanswork.com/2008/02/21/suzs-wish-is-my-command/</link>
	<description>dawn friedman's blog</description>
	<pubDate>Mon, 13 Oct 2008 14:19:17 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: PhoenixRising</title>
		<link>http://www.thiswomanswork.com/2008/02/21/suzs-wish-is-my-command/#comment-7191</link>
		<dc:creator>PhoenixRising</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Feb 2008 03:44:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thiswomanswork.com/2008/02/21/suzs-wish-is-my-command/#comment-7191</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;While they may rationally know that the circumstances leading to the abandonment are complex and varied and that the birth mother likely didn’t really have all that much say in the matter, she is the one person (even though we know nothing about her — or maybe because we have the “luxury” of not knowing who that person is) at whom we can aim our anger at our child’s circumstances (because we never blame the fathers or the grandparents or the society or…) So, why should I care what this woman’s experience might be? She left my daughter in a box on the side of the road…? What kind of person could do that?&lt;/i&gt;

The more I read of this thread, the weirder I get.

Yes, this has been my observation as well. The ambivalence about the birth moms is this throbbing vein of yuck in the international adoption communities I've been part of.

But for me it's one more way that, in taking my child out of her first culture, we took something that we can't give back. Because her first mother's experience of the patriarchy, and the strong likelihood that the decision to place was made by the elders in the extended family and it took into account the circumstances of the whole network of support...these are literally foreign concepts to my kid. 

Regardless of what language and cultural experiences we provide, she will never understand what it was like to put her baby self in that basket and walk away. We are raising her to believe that women are people, that individual desires matter, that she is a member of our family rather than the least possession of a clan. Those are all cultural beliefs.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>While they may rationally know that the circumstances leading to the abandonment are complex and varied and that the birth mother likely didn’t really have all that much say in the matter, she is the one person (even though we know nothing about her — or maybe because we have the “luxury” of not knowing who that person is) at whom we can aim our anger at our child’s circumstances (because we never blame the fathers or the grandparents or the society or…) So, why should I care what this woman’s experience might be? She left my daughter in a box on the side of the road…? What kind of person could do that?</i></p>
<p>The more I read of this thread, the weirder I get.</p>
<p>Yes, this has been my observation as well. The ambivalence about the birth moms is this throbbing vein of yuck in the international adoption communities I&#8217;ve been part of.</p>
<p>But for me it&#8217;s one more way that, in taking my child out of her first culture, we took something that we can&#8217;t give back. Because her first mother&#8217;s experience of the patriarchy, and the strong likelihood that the decision to place was made by the elders in the extended family and it took into account the circumstances of the whole network of support&#8230;these are literally foreign concepts to my kid. </p>
<p>Regardless of what language and cultural experiences we provide, she will never understand what it was like to put her baby self in that basket and walk away. We are raising her to believe that women are people, that individual desires matter, that she is a member of our family rather than the least possession of a clan. Those are all cultural beliefs.</p>
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		<title>By: sluggomarie</title>
		<link>http://www.thiswomanswork.com/2008/02/21/suzs-wish-is-my-command/#comment-7058</link>
		<dc:creator>sluggomarie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Feb 2008 20:46:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thiswomanswork.com/2008/02/21/suzs-wish-is-my-command/#comment-7058</guid>
		<description>I think Shannon has hit on a major issue in this discussion.  The societally constructed notion of motherhood establishes a "the-one-and-only" narrative that leads to a territoriality that seems almost instinctual at times (for adoptive mothers and birth/first mothers.  Surely, more the former, but definitely also the latter).  It's as if, somehow, acknowledging the humanity, opinions, and experiences of "the other woman" would result in the annihilation of our own humanity, opinions, and experiences.  If "she's" the mother, then "I" can't be.

Interestingly, this isn't necessarily the experience from the fathers's perspectives because it's OK in our society for there to be more than one father or no father or whatever...one of the many joys of partiarchy... 

And then there are issues of entitlement (which are related, in some ways, to Lula's great explanation of the hostility sometimes resulting from infertility).  Adoptive parents tend to be middle-class or upper-middle class people, very often white, and gosh darn it -- they have a RIGHT to have a child (I'm saying this sarcastically.  Hope no one freaks out thinking this is how I feel).  If the birth/first mother wasn't "good" enough to be able to take care of her child, then adoptive parents have the right to step in and have that child.  And no one can tell them otherwise! To contend that a birth/first mother should also have rights -- even if simply the right to be respected and acknowledged -- is, to them, unthinkable.

I also think there is sometimes anger stemming from a different place (not just from fertility issues, since that isn't the experience of everyone who adopts). Depending on the circumstances leading to the adoption and whether there is a "plan" or a child is abandoned (which is, in some cases, all the planning that is possible). I am most familiar with adoption from China and know that the many adoptive parents in that community walk a fine line between idolizing the unknown birth mother and being pretty darn ticked off at her for abandoning the child that is now their own.  While they may rationally know that the circumstances leading to the abandonment are complex and varied and that the birth mother likely didn't really have all that much say in the matter, she is the one person (even though we know nothing about her -- or maybe because we have the "luxury" of not knowing who that person is) at whom we can aim our anger at our child's circumstances (because we never blame the fathers or the grandparents or the society or...)  So, why should I care what this woman's experience might be?  She left my daughter in a box on the side of the road...? What kind of person could do that?  (Again, sarcasm).  

Sadly, I also think Dawn's reasons 4-6 are major -- and perhaps the most frightening.  There are just too darn many people who are too clueless and willfully so!  They are perfectly contented living in a happy little world full of puppy dogs and sunshine where everything about adoption is great, no one gets hurt in the process, and there are no complex issues to consider.  In these cases, acknowledging the victimization of the birth/first mothers isn't the only problem. I also suspect they will not be even close to able to deal with the acknowledgment their children may someday need as they are forced to wrestle with different issues (because, like reason 7 states, adoptive parents are the ones who have the privilege that affords them the luxury of not having to think about such things)...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think Shannon has hit on a major issue in this discussion.  The societally constructed notion of motherhood establishes a &#8220;the-one-and-only&#8221; narrative that leads to a territoriality that seems almost instinctual at times (for adoptive mothers and birth/first mothers.  Surely, more the former, but definitely also the latter).  It&#8217;s as if, somehow, acknowledging the humanity, opinions, and experiences of &#8220;the other woman&#8221; would result in the annihilation of our own humanity, opinions, and experiences.  If &#8220;she&#8217;s&#8221; the mother, then &#8220;I&#8221; can&#8217;t be.</p>
<p>Interestingly, this isn&#8217;t necessarily the experience from the fathers&#8217;s perspectives because it&#8217;s OK in our society for there to be more than one father or no father or whatever&#8230;one of the many joys of partiarchy&#8230; </p>
<p>And then there are issues of entitlement (which are related, in some ways, to Lula&#8217;s great explanation of the hostility sometimes resulting from infertility).  Adoptive parents tend to be middle-class or upper-middle class people, very often white, and gosh darn it &#8212; they have a RIGHT to have a child (I&#8217;m saying this sarcastically.  Hope no one freaks out thinking this is how I feel).  If the birth/first mother wasn&#8217;t &#8220;good&#8221; enough to be able to take care of her child, then adoptive parents have the right to step in and have that child.  And no one can tell them otherwise! To contend that a birth/first mother should also have rights &#8212; even if simply the right to be respected and acknowledged &#8212; is, to them, unthinkable.</p>
<p>I also think there is sometimes anger stemming from a different place (not just from fertility issues, since that isn&#8217;t the experience of everyone who adopts). Depending on the circumstances leading to the adoption and whether there is a &#8220;plan&#8221; or a child is abandoned (which is, in some cases, all the planning that is possible). I am most familiar with adoption from China and know that the many adoptive parents in that community walk a fine line between idolizing the unknown birth mother and being pretty darn ticked off at her for abandoning the child that is now their own.  While they may rationally know that the circumstances leading to the abandonment are complex and varied and that the birth mother likely didn&#8217;t really have all that much say in the matter, she is the one person (even though we know nothing about her &#8212; or maybe because we have the &#8220;luxury&#8221; of not knowing who that person is) at whom we can aim our anger at our child&#8217;s circumstances (because we never blame the fathers or the grandparents or the society or&#8230;)  So, why should I care what this woman&#8217;s experience might be?  She left my daughter in a box on the side of the road&#8230;? What kind of person could do that?  (Again, sarcasm).  </p>
<p>Sadly, I also think Dawn&#8217;s reasons 4-6 are major &#8212; and perhaps the most frightening.  There are just too darn many people who are too clueless and willfully so!  They are perfectly contented living in a happy little world full of puppy dogs and sunshine where everything about adoption is great, no one gets hurt in the process, and there are no complex issues to consider.  In these cases, acknowledging the victimization of the birth/first mothers isn&#8217;t the only problem. I also suspect they will not be even close to able to deal with the acknowledgment their children may someday need as they are forced to wrestle with different issues (because, like reason 7 states, adoptive parents are the ones who have the privilege that affords them the luxury of not having to think about such things)&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: kimkim</title>
		<link>http://www.thiswomanswork.com/2008/02/21/suzs-wish-is-my-command/#comment-7056</link>
		<dc:creator>kimkim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Feb 2008 19:43:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thiswomanswork.com/2008/02/21/suzs-wish-is-my-command/#comment-7056</guid>
		<description>"I often wonder what is gained by those adoptive parents (besides the obvious - our children) who like to blame the victims in adoption (or refuse to believe there are victims)."

I think those people just don't care.  This woman who adopted children from a widow who couldn't afford to raise them after her husband died said "but we can't have children".

Those people really don't give a shit about us Suz, that's the reality.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;I often wonder what is gained by those adoptive parents (besides the obvious - our children) who like to blame the victims in adoption (or refuse to believe there are victims).&#8221;</p>
<p>I think those people just don&#8217;t care.  This woman who adopted children from a widow who couldn&#8217;t afford to raise them after her husband died said &#8220;but we can&#8217;t have children&#8221;.</p>
<p>Those people really don&#8217;t give a shit about us Suz, that&#8217;s the reality.</p>
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		<title>By: Krissi</title>
		<link>http://www.thiswomanswork.com/2008/02/21/suzs-wish-is-my-command/#comment-7054</link>
		<dc:creator>Krissi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Feb 2008 17:55:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thiswomanswork.com/2008/02/21/suzs-wish-is-my-command/#comment-7054</guid>
		<description>Lula -

&lt;i&gt;"Therefore they certainly don’t want reminders of their “failure” hanging around or calling or wanting visits that’s too much of a threat to their already fragile (or perhaps destroyed) sense of self, so they get lizard-brained about it and lash out in defensive anger. Often this will be framed in terms of “protecting the child”, which sounds more parental and valid than “self-protection” or, in some cases, “serious denial”."&lt;/i&gt;

First of all, thank you for the comment and everything you said.  I think the above quote hits it on the head and in terms of understanding it - I do.

Bravo!

Krissi</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Lula -</p>
<p><i>&#8220;Therefore they certainly don’t want reminders of their “failure” hanging around or calling or wanting visits that’s too much of a threat to their already fragile (or perhaps destroyed) sense of self, so they get lizard-brained about it and lash out in defensive anger. Often this will be framed in terms of “protecting the child”, which sounds more parental and valid than “self-protection” or, in some cases, “serious denial”.&#8221;</i></p>
<p>First of all, thank you for the comment and everything you said.  I think the above quote hits it on the head and in terms of understanding it - I do.</p>
<p>Bravo!</p>
<p>Krissi</p>
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		<title>By: Suz</title>
		<link>http://www.thiswomanswork.com/2008/02/21/suzs-wish-is-my-command/#comment-7049</link>
		<dc:creator>Suz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Feb 2008 14:40:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thiswomanswork.com/2008/02/21/suzs-wish-is-my-command/#comment-7049</guid>
		<description>PhoenixRising - Gotcha on the clarification. Again, totally my issue, I know. My daughters parents won the lottery and for that reason were able to afford to adopt her. They told her with their winnings "they bought a house and bought a baby". And they have defniitely treated her like property. So yeah, I am admittedly overly sensitive to the owning aspects of adoption.

As for the Professioanl Christians, ooh, the discussion we could have there. I recently dated an adoptive dad whose ex wife and family were hard core fundamentalists.  Interesting conversations he and I had on the very topics you mention. 

(BTW, I read your blog and love it)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>PhoenixRising - Gotcha on the clarification. Again, totally my issue, I know. My daughters parents won the lottery and for that reason were able to afford to adopt her. They told her with their winnings &#8220;they bought a house and bought a baby&#8221;. And they have defniitely treated her like property. So yeah, I am admittedly overly sensitive to the owning aspects of adoption.</p>
<p>As for the Professioanl Christians, ooh, the discussion we could have there. I recently dated an adoptive dad whose ex wife and family were hard core fundamentalists.  Interesting conversations he and I had on the very topics you mention. </p>
<p>(BTW, I read your blog and love it)</p>
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