Comments on: I just had to pull this out http://www.thiswomanswork.com/2007/12/07/i-just-had-to-pull-this-out/ writing, mothering, writing about mothering Thu, 28 Aug 2008 20:22:39 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=abc By: who’s privileged in adoption? « a family affair http://www.thiswomanswork.com/2007/12/07/i-just-had-to-pull-this-out/#comment-6716 who’s privileged in adoption? « a family affair Tue, 18 Dec 2007 08:38:28 +0000 http://www.thiswomanswork.com/?p=1785#comment-6716 [...] (I don’t know enough, I haven’t listened enough, to talk about this. Other people, like Dawn and Nicole, are talking about it more critically and thoughtfully than I could.) I’m going to [...] [...] (I don’t know enough, I haven’t listened enough, to talk about this. Other people, like Dawn and Nicole, are talking about it more critically and thoughtfully than I could.) I’m going to [...]

]]> By: dawn http://www.thiswomanswork.com/2007/12/07/i-just-had-to-pull-this-out/#comment-6714 dawn Sun, 16 Dec 2007 18:25:06 +0000 http://www.thiswomanswork.com/?p=1785#comment-6714 Nicole, I don't see anything in your comment that I disagree with and in fact I think it's a lot of what I was trying (and obviously not succeeding) to say. I also think that the big wide world (outside of adoption) creates a climate that's pro-adoption and there are some women who have taken a huge bite of the pro-adoption cookie and there's no way that counseling/informed consent will make them spit it back out. While it's not part of adoption reform per se, I think that the bigger picture is we need to get to women before they HAVE a crisis pregnancy. Adoption is a feminist issue both because the way we treat women in adoption (the way we madonna potential adoptive moms and whore expectant moms) is a microcosm of how we treat women without and because it's an issue of choice where the "choice" is rarely freely chosen. Nicole, I don’t see anything in your comment that I disagree with and in fact I think it’s a lot of what I was trying (and obviously not succeeding) to say. I also think that the big wide world (outside of adoption) creates a climate that’s pro-adoption and there are some women who have taken a huge bite of the pro-adoption cookie and there’s no way that counseling/informed consent will make them spit it back out. While it’s not part of adoption reform per se, I think that the bigger picture is we need to get to women before they HAVE a crisis pregnancy. Adoption is a feminist issue both because the way we treat women in adoption (the way we madonna potential adoptive moms and whore expectant moms) is a microcosm of how we treat women without and because it’s an issue of choice where the “choice” is rarely freely chosen.

]]> By: Squirmy feeling « Paragraphein http://www.thiswomanswork.com/2007/12/07/i-just-had-to-pull-this-out/#comment-6715 Squirmy feeling « Paragraphein Sun, 16 Dec 2007 17:09:56 +0000 http://www.thiswomanswork.com/?p=1785#comment-6715 [...] reform, agency tactics, emotional blackmail, informed consent, relinquishment |   Dawn wrote two strong, articulate, smart posts about adoption ethics [...] [...] reform, agency tactics, emotional blackmail, informed consent, relinquishment |   Dawn wrote two strong, articulate, smart posts about adoption ethics [...]

]]> By: Paragraphein http://www.thiswomanswork.com/2007/12/07/i-just-had-to-pull-this-out/#comment-6713 Paragraphein Sat, 15 Dec 2007 22:00:20 +0000 http://www.thiswomanswork.com/?p=1785#comment-6713 Dawn, I keep coming back to this post and mulling it over. Overall, I agree with you 1000%. This right here: "In the very broadest sense when we’re talking about policy, it doesn’t matter if an individual woman is happy with how her adoption went down; what matters is whether or not she was treated ethically." That is dead-on. It's why I'm politically pro-reform, not anti-adoption. Adoption has to remain a choice for women. It has to. At the same time, something is squirming in me reading this post. And I think I've got it pinpointed. What Jenna said here: "This is where I stand on a lot of reform issues. I think less women would place if they were FULLY informed about the ins and outs of adoption. I think that, in itself, is what is needed: full disclosure of all the issues that surround adoption. I believe that because I was lied to and/or deceived by our agency because I wasn’t informed that OA’s were not legally binding in our state. (And a billion other errors.)" I agree. I agree fewer women would relinquish if they were fully informed. But... and maybe you and Jenna aren't trying to say this, maybe I'm being too sensitive, but... I do NOT think that fully informed consent is the only--or even the most important--reform that needs to be made. While I think FEWER women would relinquish with full information, I suspect it wouldn't be THAT much of a drop, honestly. There is a pregnancy counselor (within an adoption agency) who emails me from time to time. In our last exchange, she asked, "Do you think you really would have parented if you'd been told about all the potential repercussions of relinquishing?" The honest answer is... no. No, I wouldnt' have parented. I still would have relinquished. Fully informed consent wouldn't have changed the outcome. And I realize you are saying that we can't focus on the outcome in terms of policy. You are right. But my PURPOSE in wanting to reform adoption is wanting to reduce the number of women experiencing the heartache it brings. So I simply can't dismiss outcome. I won't let it drive what I think policy should be--that would be as misguided as the pro-adoption people letting THEIR views drive policy--but I also can't abandon my concern for outcome. I am more concerned with women making the choice that's right for them than with a detached type of ethics. I am. If that's wrong, so be it. So, coming from that place... I am not satisfied with informed consent. I want that, sure. But I don't think it's enough. I think passing informed consent laws is the easy part. I think it is EQUALLY important to have good, competent counseling. Counselors that can get to the emotional reasons a woman is relinquishing and help her evaluate whether they are sound reasons. Because ultimately, relinquishment isn't an intellectual decision. So all the information in the world doesn't address the core issue, the emotions. The NCFA knows this. It's not the spewing of misinformation that is the primary problem--it's their spewing of emotional manipulation. And I think we would be very naive indeed to combat an emotional attack with an informational attack. I cannot consider an adoption ethical, even if it is fully informed, so long as expectant mothers are still under that kind of emotional attack. Dawn,

I keep coming back to this post and mulling it over.

Overall, I agree with you 1000%. This right here: “In the very broadest sense when we’re talking about policy, it doesn’t matter if an individual woman is happy with how her adoption went down; what matters is whether or not she was treated ethically.”

That is dead-on. It’s why I’m politically pro-reform, not anti-adoption. Adoption has to remain a choice for women. It has to.

At the same time, something is squirming in me reading this post. And I think I’ve got it pinpointed.

What Jenna said here: “This is where I stand on a lot of reform issues. I think less women would place if they were FULLY informed about the ins and outs of adoption. I think that, in itself, is what is needed: full disclosure of all the issues that surround adoption. I believe that because I was lied to and/or deceived by our agency because I wasn’t informed that OA’s were not legally binding in our state. (And a billion other errors.)”

I agree. I agree fewer women would relinquish if they were fully informed.

But… and maybe you and Jenna aren’t trying to say this, maybe I’m being too sensitive, but…

I do NOT think that fully informed consent is the only–or even the most important–reform that needs to be made.

While I think FEWER women would relinquish with full information, I suspect it wouldn’t be THAT much of a drop, honestly.

There is a pregnancy counselor (within an adoption agency) who emails me from time to time. In our last exchange, she asked, “Do you think you really would have parented if you’d been told about all the potential repercussions of relinquishing?”

The honest answer is… no. No, I wouldnt’ have parented. I still would have relinquished. Fully informed consent wouldn’t have changed the outcome.

And I realize you are saying that we can’t focus on the outcome in terms of policy. You are right.

But my PURPOSE in wanting to reform adoption is wanting to reduce the number of women experiencing the heartache it brings. So I simply can’t dismiss outcome. I won’t let it drive what I think policy should be–that would be as misguided as the pro-adoption people letting THEIR views drive policy–but I also can’t abandon my concern for outcome.

I am more concerned with women making the choice that’s right for them than with a detached type of ethics. I am. If that’s wrong, so be it.

So, coming from that place…

I am not satisfied with informed consent. I want that, sure. But I don’t think it’s enough. I think passing informed consent laws is the easy part.

I think it is EQUALLY important to have good, competent counseling. Counselors that can get to the emotional reasons a woman is relinquishing and help her evaluate whether they are sound reasons.

Because ultimately, relinquishment isn’t an intellectual decision. So all the information in the world doesn’t address the core issue, the emotions.

The NCFA knows this. It’s not the spewing of misinformation that is the primary problem–it’s their spewing of emotional manipulation.

And I think we would be very naive indeed to combat an emotional attack with an informational attack.

I cannot consider an adoption ethical, even if it is fully informed, so long as expectant mothers are still under that kind of emotional attack.

]]> By: Tori http://www.thiswomanswork.com/2007/12/07/i-just-had-to-pull-this-out/#comment-6712 Tori Sat, 15 Dec 2007 20:12:56 +0000 http://www.thiswomanswork.com/?p=1785#comment-6712 Very clear. And thank you. I'm new to the adoption world and have been struggling to understand why some are so adamantly opposed to it. Your post helps quite a bit. The analogy I immediately thought of is this, perhaps because I am African American. It doesn't matter if a master treated his slaves respectfully or if they were "friends", just that slavery (as it happened in this country) is immoral. Very clear. And thank you. I’m new to the adoption world and have been struggling to understand why some are so adamantly opposed to it. Your post helps quite a bit. The analogy I immediately thought of is this, perhaps because I am African American. It doesn’t matter if a master treated his slaves respectfully or if they were “friends”, just that slavery (as it happened in this country) is immoral.

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