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	<title>Comments on: I answered BJ twice</title>
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	<link>http://www.thiswomanswork.com/2007/08/29/i-answered-bj-twice/</link>
	<description>dawn friedman's blog</description>
	<pubDate>Wed, 19 Nov 2008 23:56:02 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: chanie</title>
		<link>http://www.thiswomanswork.com/2007/08/29/i-answered-bj-twice/#comment-5839</link>
		<dc:creator>chanie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Aug 2007 05:40:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thiswomanswork.com/?p=1568#comment-5839</guid>
		<description>perfect timing -- my kids just started school yesterday.
i've always been anti-school, and this, and most of your posts about it, help me articulate why. defining success is a good one.
i think i've been able to (so far) get across to my kids that success is not about the grade on the test or completing the homework and helping them see the bigger picture and learn in different ways.
what's been hard for me is my daughter doing homework and me telling her to blow it off and just read (when she is exhausted after 2 hrs of work and is complaining that she just wants to read her book -in 3rd grade) and she refuses. she's such a perfectionist, that she wants to do it all perfectly. what's funny is that her teacher even told us that we should pick an amount of time that works for our family and let her do the things that intrest her most, and then stop.
i also resent the homework in general since i do think that is my time with my kids, or their own time, and the school has them all day.
i've also spent too much time helping out in school to see how much time they are wasting during the day. i keep telling myself that if i truly believe in unschooling, i have to think they are learning something and gaining something from the down time/unorganized/discipling other kids time  too, but i'm not sure. or maybe i'm not sure those are things i want her to be learning.

it also depends a lot on the teacher. we were lucky with my daughter last year that she had some excellent teachers - who served as great role models, inspired learning in and out of the classroom, and helped learn social issues as well (still, third grade). my son, not so much. he kept coming home from school with things where i'd say 'see, this is why i want to homeschool' to my husband.

anyway, i'd be interested in hearing your continued response to the virtual school and how it compares to what you've been doing until now. obviously, we all do what is best for our families, but hearing about somebody else's experiences helps us figure out the options, or how to tweak our own options to reflect some of the values we want to teach our kids.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>perfect timing &#8212; my kids just started school yesterday.<br />
i&#8217;ve always been anti-school, and this, and most of your posts about it, help me articulate why. defining success is a good one.<br />
i think i&#8217;ve been able to (so far) get across to my kids that success is not about the grade on the test or completing the homework and helping them see the bigger picture and learn in different ways.<br />
what&#8217;s been hard for me is my daughter doing homework and me telling her to blow it off and just read (when she is exhausted after 2 hrs of work and is complaining that she just wants to read her book -in 3rd grade) and she refuses. she&#8217;s such a perfectionist, that she wants to do it all perfectly. what&#8217;s funny is that her teacher even told us that we should pick an amount of time that works for our family and let her do the things that intrest her most, and then stop.<br />
i also resent the homework in general since i do think that is my time with my kids, or their own time, and the school has them all day.<br />
i&#8217;ve also spent too much time helping out in school to see how much time they are wasting during the day. i keep telling myself that if i truly believe in unschooling, i have to think they are learning something and gaining something from the down time/unorganized/discipling other kids time  too, but i&#8217;m not sure. or maybe i&#8217;m not sure those are things i want her to be learning.</p>
<p>it also depends a lot on the teacher. we were lucky with my daughter last year that she had some excellent teachers - who served as great role models, inspired learning in and out of the classroom, and helped learn social issues as well (still, third grade). my son, not so much. he kept coming home from school with things where i&#8217;d say &#8217;see, this is why i want to homeschool&#8217; to my husband.</p>
<p>anyway, i&#8217;d be interested in hearing your continued response to the virtual school and how it compares to what you&#8217;ve been doing until now. obviously, we all do what is best for our families, but hearing about somebody else&#8217;s experiences helps us figure out the options, or how to tweak our own options to reflect some of the values we want to teach our kids.</p>
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		<title>By: dawn</title>
		<link>http://www.thiswomanswork.com/2007/08/29/i-answered-bj-twice/#comment-5849</link>
		<dc:creator>dawn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Aug 2007 16:40:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thiswomanswork.com/?p=1568#comment-5849</guid>
		<description>Well, thanks Jody and I guess I'm just mishearing you. I honestly don't think other parents are making bad choices from within their paradigms. Honestly.

Frankly I'm having a really hard time with this virtual school (so many of the things I DON'T LIKE about school) but am doing it 'cuz I love my kid and want him to have options and I love my husband who's not as unschool-y as I am and needed more "proof." So I'm feeling raw and defensive. Having BJ come on here and rattle my chain (and I don't think she's at all doing a drive-by or being out of line) bothered me way more than it would have, say, last week before the freakin' school started.

My friend said I'm torqueing. I think that's how you spell it. Anyway, I'm certainly twitchier and more teary these past two days.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, thanks Jody and I guess I&#8217;m just mishearing you. I honestly don&#8217;t think other parents are making bad choices from within their paradigms. Honestly.</p>
<p>Frankly I&#8217;m having a really hard time with this virtual school (so many of the things I DON&#8217;T LIKE about school) but am doing it &#8216;cuz I love my kid and want him to have options and I love my husband who&#8217;s not as unschool-y as I am and needed more &#8220;proof.&#8221; So I&#8217;m feeling raw and defensive. Having BJ come on here and rattle my chain (and I don&#8217;t think she&#8217;s at all doing a drive-by or being out of line) bothered me way more than it would have, say, last week before the freakin&#8217; school started.</p>
<p>My friend said I&#8217;m torqueing. I think that&#8217;s how you spell it. Anyway, I&#8217;m certainly twitchier and more teary these past two days.</p>
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		<title>By: Jody</title>
		<link>http://www.thiswomanswork.com/2007/08/29/i-answered-bj-twice/#comment-5848</link>
		<dc:creator>Jody</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Aug 2007 16:36:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thiswomanswork.com/?p=1568#comment-5848</guid>
		<description>Well, I guess we're going to have to leave it at, I'm surprised.  I don't know why I should be, because I never have the least urge to raise my eyebrows at YOUR choices, but I am.  You've just always written so passionately about why you think public schools are not a great fit for the values of pursuing passion, etc.

FWIW, I have never felt the least CONDEMNED by your arguments.  I was imagining a sort of bemused, "well, THAT'S an interesting argument" sort of response from you.  Absolutely friendly and respectful.  Honestly I think you have the better argument on your side, if it comes to that.

I've thought often of homeschooling as a persuasive choice (helped along by an IRL friend who does it, with delight, and by a homeschooling community around here that is Activist with a capital A).  I'm always a little astounded -- but no longer surprised -- when homeschooling entries provoke such hostility among blog commentators.  I do hope you realize that I was not being hostile.  Truly.

I've never had the sense that it was any of my business how you went about educating your son and daughter, but the stories you've shared over the years have more than convinced me that you made and are making fantastic choices for them.  It's a little embarrassing that I even have to type that out.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, I guess we&#8217;re going to have to leave it at, I&#8217;m surprised.  I don&#8217;t know why I should be, because I never have the least urge to raise my eyebrows at YOUR choices, but I am.  You&#8217;ve just always written so passionately about why you think public schools are not a great fit for the values of pursuing passion, etc.</p>
<p>FWIW, I have never felt the least CONDEMNED by your arguments.  I was imagining a sort of bemused, &#8220;well, THAT&#8217;S an interesting argument&#8221; sort of response from you.  Absolutely friendly and respectful.  Honestly I think you have the better argument on your side, if it comes to that.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve thought often of homeschooling as a persuasive choice (helped along by an IRL friend who does it, with delight, and by a homeschooling community around here that is Activist with a capital A).  I&#8217;m always a little astounded &#8212; but no longer surprised &#8212; when homeschooling entries provoke such hostility among blog commentators.  I do hope you realize that I was not being hostile.  Truly.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve never had the sense that it was any of my business how you went about educating your son and daughter, but the stories you&#8217;ve shared over the years have more than convinced me that you made and are making fantastic choices for them.  It&#8217;s a little embarrassing that I even have to type that out.</p>
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		<title>By: dawn</title>
		<link>http://www.thiswomanswork.com/2007/08/29/i-answered-bj-twice/#comment-5847</link>
		<dc:creator>dawn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Aug 2007 16:35:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thiswomanswork.com/?p=1568#comment-5847</guid>
		<description>Umm that should be "the way I do HERE" not "hear."

Also I'd just like to refer to this gem of an essay: http://www.literarymama.com/oped/archives/000954.html

Again, like religion. I'm not raising my eyebrows at my sister the agnostic who wants her kids to grow to be good people and isn't raising them within any religious tradition even though I'm raising my kids as Jews because I feel like it's a big help when it comes to raising good people. It's possible to hold both a personal view and a "the rest of the world" view.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Umm that should be &#8220;the way I do HERE&#8221; not &#8220;hear.&#8221;</p>
<p>Also I&#8217;d just like to refer to this gem of an essay: <a href="http://www.literarymama.com/oped/archives/000954.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.literarymama.com/oped/archives/000954.html</a></p>
<p>Again, like religion. I&#8217;m not raising my eyebrows at my sister the agnostic who wants her kids to grow to be good people and isn&#8217;t raising them within any religious tradition even though I&#8217;m raising my kids as Jews because I feel like it&#8217;s a big help when it comes to raising good people. It&#8217;s possible to hold both a personal view and a &#8220;the rest of the world&#8221; view.</p>
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		<title>By: dawn</title>
		<link>http://www.thiswomanswork.com/2007/08/29/i-answered-bj-twice/#comment-5844</link>
		<dc:creator>dawn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Aug 2007 16:13:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thiswomanswork.com/?p=1568#comment-5844</guid>
		<description>"So when I made that little throw-away comment, I wasn't attacking you for being judgmental (and I ran across enough anonymous commentators in your archives to see why it might have felt that way).  I was acknowledging what I assumed were your raised eyebrows as I claimed that unschoolers and NCLB-era public schoolers could still have the same goals for their kids.

Really: your eyebrows weren't raised?"

No, they're not.

I've got a friend who's a political conservative. He's a great guy. He believes many of the same things I believe most particularly that the government has an obligation to the poor. We absolutely fundamentally disagree on how the government should best meet this obligation. I state things as facts, "The government does this wrong" and so does he, "The government does that right!" But this doesn't mean we condemn each other's opinions.

Studies show this, studies show that -- and we base our opinions on "facts" that we can't really prove. Arguing in general with my friend about government policies? Kinda fun because I always learn a lot and we're arguing theoretically and we both know that when it comes right down to it, we're pretty much on the same side albeit like opposite sides of the same side.

I don't find it as fun to argue about education because it's NOT theoretical for any of us and so even those of us on the "same side" (i.e., not rigid authoritarians) who have very similar values for our kids can get defensive. (I get very defensive because you know, you choose to be in the minority and lots of people in the majority feel free to weigh in on your choices. I know I've blogged before about strangers telling me what's wrong with homeschooling in front of my homeschooled kid in the grocery store.)

In my real life most of my parenting friends don't homeschool. A bunch of 'em did but most of them have kids in school now. I love my friends and I respect them. I know they are absolutely devoted to their kids and I know that they share most of the same values I share -- that's why we're friends. We're very careful around each other about school because even though we support each other's choices, talking about our OWN choices (the way I do hear) can sound like criticism. So you know, we avoid any but the most general talk. (This is how my kid is doing, this is how your kid is doing.) But I don't raise my eyebrows at them because I KNOW them and I know the love and devotion that are behind their decisions. I trust them. I trust their choices even if I wouldn't make them. And I believe they extend the same courtesy to me.

Do I disagree with them? Only if they'd try to tell me that I should be doing it their way. As many factored as any educational choice is (as many factored as our kids are, as our life situations are, as our individual schooling options are, as the teachers who are doing the teaching are, etc. etc.), I absolutely cannot say with any certainty that any way is the right way and I just hope that MY way keeps on working for MY family.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;So when I made that little throw-away comment, I wasn&#8217;t attacking you for being judgmental (and I ran across enough anonymous commentators in your archives to see why it might have felt that way).  I was acknowledging what I assumed were your raised eyebrows as I claimed that unschoolers and NCLB-era public schoolers could still have the same goals for their kids.</p>
<p>Really: your eyebrows weren&#8217;t raised?&#8221;</p>
<p>No, they&#8217;re not.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve got a friend who&#8217;s a political conservative. He&#8217;s a great guy. He believes many of the same things I believe most particularly that the government has an obligation to the poor. We absolutely fundamentally disagree on how the government should best meet this obligation. I state things as facts, &#8220;The government does this wrong&#8221; and so does he, &#8220;The government does that right!&#8221; But this doesn&#8217;t mean we condemn each other&#8217;s opinions.</p>
<p>Studies show this, studies show that &#8212; and we base our opinions on &#8220;facts&#8221; that we can&#8217;t really prove. Arguing in general with my friend about government policies? Kinda fun because I always learn a lot and we&#8217;re arguing theoretically and we both know that when it comes right down to it, we&#8217;re pretty much on the same side albeit like opposite sides of the same side.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t find it as fun to argue about education because it&#8217;s NOT theoretical for any of us and so even those of us on the &#8220;same side&#8221; (i.e., not rigid authoritarians) who have very similar values for our kids can get defensive. (I get very defensive because you know, you choose to be in the minority and lots of people in the majority feel free to weigh in on your choices. I know I&#8217;ve blogged before about strangers telling me what&#8217;s wrong with homeschooling in front of my homeschooled kid in the grocery store.)</p>
<p>In my real life most of my parenting friends don&#8217;t homeschool. A bunch of &#8216;em did but most of them have kids in school now. I love my friends and I respect them. I know they are absolutely devoted to their kids and I know that they share most of the same values I share &#8212; that&#8217;s why we&#8217;re friends. We&#8217;re very careful around each other about school because even though we support each other&#8217;s choices, talking about our OWN choices (the way I do hear) can sound like criticism. So you know, we avoid any but the most general talk. (This is how my kid is doing, this is how your kid is doing.) But I don&#8217;t raise my eyebrows at them because I KNOW them and I know the love and devotion that are behind their decisions. I trust them. I trust their choices even if I wouldn&#8217;t make them. And I believe they extend the same courtesy to me.</p>
<p>Do I disagree with them? Only if they&#8217;d try to tell me that I should be doing it their way. As many factored as any educational choice is (as many factored as our kids are, as our life situations are, as our individual schooling options are, as the teachers who are doing the teaching are, etc. etc.), I absolutely cannot say with any certainty that any way is the right way and I just hope that MY way keeps on working for MY family.</p>
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