Grouchy commenters
I have been lucky that I haven’t been targeted by nasty commenters (mostly). There have been a couple of people who have obviously been using controversial comments as spam — trying to get people to say, “WTF???” and then click through to their sites to see what kind of lunatic would write such nonsense. Those I delete (there have been maybe three over six years of blogging). But the ones that strongly disagree with me, make assumptions about who I am or about Jessica? (Usually antiadoption activists) Those I leave.
Sometimes they make me wince. Sometimes I hit reply before I shake it off. I always approve them. You guys know I’m sympathetic to the antiadoption point of view even though I’m not antiadoption.
One thing though. I think it’s really important for the antiadoption activists to understand that to really institute adoption reform, you have to get to adoptive and would-be adoptive parents because it’s our money that drives the system — telling us how shitty we are likely isn’t going to cut it. Adoptive parents and wannabe adoptive parents who are reading through my blog archives (and I have been told that there are a few agencies that include a link to various blogs — including mine — as part of their training for adoptive parents) are going to dismiss vitriolic comments. You want to open their eyes? Find a way to share that doesn’t paint them as Satan incarnate.
I’m just sayin’.
Isn’t that like telling a Jew to be friendly to a Nazi though? I mean the hard core anti-adoptionists have not been given reason to respect or trust people who adopt.
I think you should keep working for adoption reform and keep trying to change the evil people in adoption (heh good luck with that!) and not expect the victims of adoption to act normal.
Just sayin too….
You saw that woman whose post I sent you and did you see how shocked and upset both adoptive and non adoptive mothers were by it? That woman isn’t going to listen to an anti-adoptionist no matter how polite.
If a woman is drugged and has her child kidnapped from her then she’s not going to be all calm and relaxed when talking about adoption. We need to stamp down on the evil that is going on, it’s the only way around it.
I mean let’s face it Dawn, some of those people who adopt really ARE Satan incarnate……
“Here, here,” as always, Dawn.
People (adoptive and potential adoptive parents) who are open-minded and willing to listen would more likely listen to a reasonable argument, and not a vitriolic one. Any attack that puts one on the defensive accomplishes only more of the “us vs. them” mentality, and doesn’t forward any attempts at reform.
There will always be people on both sides who refuse to listen. The extremes don’t get along — it’s the people in the middle who are willing to give and take who can accomplish small things. Small things that can hopefully grow into bigger, more institutional changes.
I think extremes in opinion exist for us to learn from. They bring things to light in a forceful way that is often necessary to affect change. But changing people’s minds in a real way requires gradual influence, and I’ve found from my own experience that I achieve a lot more when I am calm and reasonable than when I am angry and accusatory.
sorry for the long comment!
e
kim.kim,
I actually don’t think so. I think it’s more like asking a Jew to look at WWII Germany and realize that not every adult living in that society was Hitler, even though most of them were members of the Nazi party. Some of them were trying to choose between imperfect politicians and grossly underestimated the extent of the bad that would come with the good. Some of them were trying to make the best choices they could in a world where there weren’t many good choices to make, and there were huge risks to yourself and your family if you made the wrong ones. Some of them went ahead and made those choices anyway, and accepted the risks that came with them. Some of them lacked the education or perspective to truly see the full impacts of their choices. And yes, some of them did see what was happening, and believed in it, and embraced the evil.
I know plenty of Jews who swear they will never set food in Germany, purchase German products, etc. And I sympathize with their opinion because I know it comes out of huge amounts of pain and loss - but I still don’t think it’s right.
I actually like your analogy, because in my mind adoption is somewhat similar. There are evil adopters who drug women and kidnap babies, and there are ill-informed adopters who just don’t think about the impacts of their choices, and there are adopters who are given the information about the impacts and choose to ignore it, and there are adopters who want to support the whole triad but are limited by the system, and there are adopters who stick their necks out to try and change the system for the better. And I think we can all agree that the kidnappers are evil, but I’d like to think that most of us could also agree that this is not a black and white issue, and that there are many shades of grey. Even if all adoption is wrong, I still don’t think that makes every adoptive parent into an evil kidnapper any more than the Holocaust being wrong makes every German alive in the 40s morally equivalent to Hitler.
That’s why I said Nazi and not German, Sarah.
And just to clarify, I am not saying people who adopt are like Nazis……just thought I’d better add that!!
Thanks for the clarification
Like I said I actually thought it was an interesting (and not offensive) analogy.
I guess my point (which I’m not sure why I needed to write a book to make) is that I don’t think Dawn was asking the antiadoption activists to be friendly and forgiving to every adoptive parent including the ‘kidnappers’; more to acknowledge that not all adoptive parents fall into that category even if you don’t agree with the choices they made. To me, that’s a little more similar to asking Jews to communicate with the average German than to asking them to be friendly to the Nazi leaders.
If I’m misinterpreting either your words or Dawn’s, apologies in advance.
I have to admit, Kim, that back in April if you had come at me in the manner Dawn is speaking of, I don’t know that I would have been able to really hear you. And I am eternally grateful that you did come by my site and show me the error of my ways. But, that is a good analogy, though. And, I have to admit, that seeing the attitudes like the one you mentioned helped me understand why some folks have reacted to me so, ummm, negatively.
I was flamed by a comment only once, and that was for a post about problems with our family’s vegetarianism at our preschool. I left that one up.
Incidentally I have deleted only two non-spam comments: a commenter from Hawaii posted Mango Mama’s phone number in a comment, and then Jennifer van L. posted a comment asking me to remove it so she wouldn’t get more calls (so other readers must have called; I didn’t). (More boringly someone posted her email address & asked me to take it down to avoid spam).
Adoption and vegetarianism: they just seem so inherently good to me. It’s weird to think there are angry people out there flaming over these things.
The other thing that I think I know of antiadoption activists is that they don’t really want or need the approval of people who adopt.
You see they have an agenda (and I will always take their sides in an argument no matter how grouchy they may appear) which is not about adoption reform but about abolishing it entirely.
It’s kind of like the women who fought for us to get the vote, they weren’t polite about it either. Emiline Pankhurst threw herself under a horse to make her point, others were force fed in prisons whilst undergoing hunger strikes. They fought for us to get the vote.
The antiadoptionists are the ones who have the websites giving information about coercion and abuse that went on and still goes on today. They are the ones letting us know that the adoption industry in America is a billion dollar profit making industry.
I am grateful for their courage and committment to keeping mothers and babies together.
I don’t know where I stand exactly on adoption right at this moment but if I am asked to take sides then I will support the angry mothers because I just won’t traitor them.
What we are really talking about is mothers who have lost their children through injustice, bullying and coercion, wouldn’t you be angry too?
I think we need to stop judging mothers like me and start attacking the real problem, the evil corruption that exists in adoption.
When we do that and when we don’t profit from an industry that exploits mothers like me then you will be working for something truly powerful.
Let’s stamp down on the real enemies, not the grieving mothers.
Kim, I think that is what Dawn is speaking to- stamping out the corruption in adoption through reform. And I truly don’t see anyone on this line slamming grieving mothers. It’s just that people are much more likely to be open to what they are saying if it is presented in the right fashion. You are right that anger is an excellent motivator, but it must be tempered on occassion with presentation. Even if we disagree on the ultimate outcome (reform vs abolition) I think we have common ground to stand on. I think we could make progress together.
Lisa, I have to disagree somewhat. I am an adoptive parent who has engaged in various types of activism for adoption reform, from lobbying Congress to joining Bastard Nation.
And I don’t know that I do have common ground with someone whose views on adoption include having The Answer For Everyone. I think Kim is saying, and I know that there are anti-adoption warriors who believe, that adoption is always wrong for mothers and babies and should never happen.
That’s a view that is uninformed by human history and biology, as well as a fundmental insult to both my integrity and the human rights of my child and the mother who chose to abandon her. So while I respect the right of those extremists to express their justified indignation about how some mothers and babies have been treated by the adoption system in whatever form they choose, I think they are being unrealistic if they expect that anyone who doesn’t already agree with them will be moved to (supportive) action by that expression.
That is, I don’t see this as an issue where we can pull in the same direction and just decide where we stop cooperation, but that’s because we’re not starting out toward the same end point.
So, in sum, Dawn, good luck with the whole ‘you kids quit yelling and we’ll calmly discuss your point’ approach. It strikes me as futile to even raise the issue, because of the excellent fit between the strategy of yelling real loud and the specific content being expressed.
But that’s me. There’s a place for radical positions in every conversation.
Phoenix your use of language is deliberately inflammatory and insulting. I wonder if you don’t get enough drama and excitement in your day to day life?
The moral high ground thankfully is something Dawn never takes, and I love and respect her for that. I suggest we all talke a leaf from her book. I am doing my best to do that now and not deliver a cyber slap!:)
I am not taking sides here. If anyone is going to attack Dawn I will run to her defense with my sword at the ready, if anyone wants to belittle anti adoption activists I will do the same.
I am just saying that you guys aren’t really part of this battle since you have all adopted, this isn’t me judging you it’s just a fact. So you are not thinking clearly. It’s not about you working for adoption reform, it’s more about you not taking other women’s babies. That’s what I believe their point is (and I could be wrong so please correct me someone if I am)
So long as you are planning to keep on adopting then they are not seeking your approval or co-operation unless you are intending to stop doing that and support mothers instead.
Again, not my public viewpoint just my overall impression of what is gong on.
Adoption reform to some people is like asking a rapist to be gentle you know? A lot of people see adoption as a form of kidnapping or theft so you if you truly want to understand what these people are saying or why you need to be able to try to be in their shoes.
I don’t know where I stand on adoption right now, all I know is that there are people whom I adore who have adopted and there are people whom I adore who have lost their children to adoption and there are adoptees whom I worship so I don’t need to take a stand right now.
Thank you Dawn for letting all sides rant here, you are a spiritual giant.
I have to say that after Kim.Kim’s first comment I felt like, “You know, she’s right.” I can’t ask people who are as angry and as hurt by adoption to come and say things nicely to me. I’ve written about this before — that extremism sometimes is serving a purpose beyond its own activism. I think I fall into this trap of wanting to be seen as a “good adopter” but I have to remind myself that the only approval I need is my family’s (including Jessica) and that I have that. For people who are vehemently anti-adoption, “good adopter” is an oxymoron anyway and I know that’s about ADOPTION and not about my small life.
I try to be thicker skinned when it comes to my blog and sometimes it’s a little harder than I’d like it to be.
This turned into a really loooong comment. Yeah, I know, “get your own blog…”
Dawn, I think you’ve created a healthy balance in that you have all kinds of viewpoints being expressed, mostly without vitriolic personal slams despite the strongest possible disagreement, in your comments. That’s a testament to the thick skin you’ve developed, because it sets a tone for everyone.
I just hate to see adoptive parents doing what I saw so many of us in the gay rights movement do, to so little effect for so many years: “He’s dying, so he must be right that I’m a sellout because I don’t think setting Pfizer’s research facility on fire is going to work to get AIDS treatments covered by Medicare!”
The most radical position is not typically the most practical one from which to effect real change, nor are the folks most injured by a particular problem thereby correct about how to solve it. We still, if we want anything to change for the better, have to evaluate strategies for change based on their likely outcomes raher than who’s shouting what. So you’re wise to let it roll off your back, knowing that it has nothing to do with the results you care about.
Kim, I think you’re over the line with the personal comments there, although I recall that you’re not US based and there may be a cultural difference I’m not aware of. Perhaps there is some society in which it’s remotely appropriate to make digs at people who don’t agree with you, but I suspect that it’s just another example of what I’m talking about.
I’m not particularly troubled that you want to express inflammatory insults to all adoptive parents, because it has nothing to do with me. I think that the personal slurs don’t have a place in the dialogue, but partly I think that because I think reforming adoption law is really, really important. So important that an honest, painful debate about who adoption serves and why, is a debate worth having despite the fact that most people who agree with my extreme viewpoints tend to call me a bunch of nasty names.
You did make the point that I was trying, however clumsily, to make: Some forms of extremist expression are not activism, they’re attempts to shut down a conversation so that the debate is stuck in one position. If adoption is like rape, the only sensible response is, It should be outlawed for everyone under all circumstances. That tactic shifts the terms of the argument so that what reformers are asking for is a gentler form of rape. There is no route from that point to laws that improve the outcomes for birth mothers and children…road closed.
In this case, some extremists want so much to express their feelings of violation stemming from how adoption has touched their lives that it’s irrelevant how that expression affects their stated goals. Of course, Dawn’s original point that this type of flamethrowing can’t work to support adoption reform is true, but what I’m saying is that it cannot be intended to change anything.
I refuse to believe that engaged, intelligent people have any expectation that change comes through pissing on the people who have the power to affect the outcome. So I don’t believe that the intention of those inflammatory comments is to affect the outcome, I believe that the intention is to express rage. Because any other interpretation is insulting to the tactical ability and smarts of the people taking that position.
You know I was trying to formulate this comment in response to your post a little while ago about people who say “she’s so lucky to have you” re Jessica, but I gave up because I was having a hard time articulating it, but this was my general point.
I think that the fact that you (all of your family, including Jessica, but this is your blog, so in this case, you, Dawn) have a heart that is big enough to handle all the complexities of your family situation, in a way that produces joy for all concerned is really wonderful. And I still didn’t articulate that quite right. I wonder if that is what the inappropriate (in-person) commenters are trying to get at.
And for every hostile blog-commenter, I’d bet there just as many lurkers like me who think the above.
I don’t want to throw around words like evil, and cruel, because I choose to believe that most adoptive parents would be suprised at the pain we go through. I was drugged, then forced by my family to sign papers that gave my child to someone else. I will never be whole until I have found my daughter and reunited which by the way may never happen because no one will give me her name, or the names of the people who treat her as if they own her and she is their child. She is not their child, she is my heart and my soul, even after 18 years. I lost my Jessie (The name I would have given her) 4 days after her birth. I had planned to keep her. I was breastfeeding my daughter. She was stolen, so while adoptive parents may not be evil, or may not even know the details of how the adoption became available, they do have the responsibility to find out.
Lorri, I am deeply deeply sorry for your loss. I hope that you are able to find Jessie soon. You are both in my thoughts.