I have never read or participated in a blog before, so please forgive me if this is the wrong place and/or time for my comments.
I am a DES daughter who has (so far) unexplained fertility. I recently went through a bunch of tests and my gyn says everything “looks fine”, of course I know that everything is not “fine”.
DES (Diethylstilbesterol) was a synthetic hormone given to women to prevent miscarraige and to promote “stronger, healthier babies” even though it had never been shown it would do either. Instead of the supposed benefits, millions of women found not only that it did not prevent miscarraige, but that it could cause problems for them, AND infertility, reproductive malformations as well as a predisposition to certain cervical cancers in their daughters (problems in sons as well) who were exposed to DES in the womb. We still don’t know how many generations will be affected.
Although no abnormalities have been found in my reproductive organs (I think the tests done were not exactly all-inclusive), I am 41 years old and have never been pregnant ( at least none confirmed though I have very strong suspicions that I have miscarried extremely early several times.)
I was married before for 12 years and never had a confirmed pregnancy. Infrequency of coupling may have been a factor, so when I remarried my hopes were pretty high. Well, it’s been 2.5 years and no pregnancies.
I am writing to you first off because I want you to know that I understand some of the struggles and the pain you have been through.(I can’t begin to tell you how much my own stuggles have hurt, and how hard I struggle still to hang on to hope even at my age!) I empathize with you and understand your decisions to get on with your life, quit “trying” and eventually to adopt a child. I wish so badly that I could do that, but I just can’t seem to get there with the emotional part, and adopting a child will never happen for me…it’s way too expensive. (omg, sorry, Im not trying to make this a whine session)
Anyway, I was reading about the herbs you tried and it made me think… I have been doing quite a bit of research lately on herbs and supplements. I am trying to start a business making and selling lotions, shampoos etc that don’t affect our hormones and/or contain harmful chemicals) I was trying to find out which herbs do and do not have estrogenic effects since I don’t want the lotions etc. I make and sell to have any hormonal effects on those who use them. Along the line I started to learn about herbs and supplements that have an effect -positive or negative- on fertility (and of course my studies got a bit “diverted”, lol)
While it seems from what I have read on your infertility blog that you are finally content (for the most part) with where you are in your journey through all of this, I felt it might be important to mention this for those who may stumble across your blog and who are still trying.
To comment on: Archive:Infertility/Sept 30,2002
“While treating myself I used vitex (chasteberry), red raspberry leaf, red clover, nettles, dong quai and licorice root….And I was using natural progesterone….”
I understand that although you concieved using these herbs, it resulted in recurrent pregnancy loss. I’m so sorry to read this, I want to cry everytime I read about others going through this, because even though I don’t have “confirmed” miscarraiges, I feel very strongly that I have had them and it hurt every time.
I need to look into Red Raspberry leaf, dong-quai and nettle more,
Research that I have read supports Vitex for promoting progesterone by the way! From what I have read, it doesn’t act on the hormones to do this but stimulates the pituitary glands to promote natural hormone production.
BUT MORE IMPORTANTLY:
According to research -
“Herbs and spices with the highest estrogen receptor binding activity (that is, with high levels of phytoestrogens) were soy, thyme, licorice, red clover, turmeric, hops and verbena.”
“Herbal extracts, high in phytoestrogens that bound to estrogen receptors, either stimulated growth (that is, they functioned as estrogen agonists) or they had no activity (they were neutral).”
“The most potent estrogen-binding products were soy milk, licorice and red clover. ”
*************************************************
“The six highest progesterone-binding herbs and spices (ie, highest in phytoprogestins) were thyme, oregano, verbena, turmeric, red clover and damiana”
“extracts that were high in phytoprogestins either inhibited alkaline phosphatase (ie, they functioned as progesterone antagonists) or they had no effect (they were neutral) in these test systems.”
quotes from: Antioxidants, Nutraceuticals and Functional Foods
by Robert Ronzio, Ph.D.
In a nutshell:
Phytoestrogens are found in fruits, vegetables, grains, herbs, etc. and mimic estrogens. They bind to estrogen receptors in our bodies and replace the natural estrogens…acting like estrogens in our bodies.
Phytoprogestins are also found in foods/herbs, and bind to our progesterone receptors, but oddly enough, instead of acting like weak progesterone or producing more progesterone, they actually can block or inhibit our bodies ability to produce progesterone.
I feel so bad that this information is not (and has not been) widely available. So many women are trying herbal remedies as alternatives to harsh, invasive, and/or extremely expensive treatments. If you have used any of the herbs I listed here, please, please, please, do not blame yourself that it didn’t work! I am horrified to see that even people doing “clinical studies” who are doctors and phd’s are including red clover in their “remedies”.
I believe as early as 1947 ( I can’t find the article at the moment) it was found that sheep eating clover became infertile…this was one of the incidents that led to the research on phytoestrogens and how plants affect us chemically and especially hormonally.
Is it just me, or doesn’t it make sense that an herb that is shown to be “anti-progesterone” is not a good idea to include in a remedy for infertility when it is claiming to “balance” hormones?
So many woman are now “estrogen dominant” that the xenoestrogens, those from plastics,pesticides,etc (in cosmetics, preservatives like methyl, propyl &isobutylparben)
and the phytoestrogens and phytoprogestins in our foods or personal care products like sage,thyme, fennel, etc., are being blamed for the huge increase in Infertility. Between 1982-1988 Infertility increased by 36%!
It is just about impossible to get away from ALL estrogens but we can certainly get rid of some of the excess -i.e. help our bodies metabolize excess estrogens, watch our diets, what lotions, shampoos etc we use…we don’t want to go to the ABSOLUTE extreme probably, but it seems we are practically swimming in a sea of estrogens, it is likely we don’t need more.
While some believe that phytoestrogens can act as either pro estrogen OR against it depending on how much or how little estrogen the person who takes it has at the time, others, also based on research, believe that it may SEEM to block estrogens at first, but eventually promotes it and ends up acting like estrogen in the body after all.
Personally,since more and more women are estrogen dominant I would stay away from anything promoting estrogen as a supplement unless you have been shown through saliva tests that you don’t have enough bioavailable estrogen ( which I think is probably unlikely). We get a lot of estrogens just from what we eat every day.
All you have to do is type in the word “phytoestrogen” in a search and you will get tons of sites promoting them as beneficial to your health (you have to really dig to find the legitimate research type info) and see a very long list of foods, herbs and spices that we eat/drink every day…even that we use in our lotions, cosmetics and other personal care products.
It may be a good idea to stay away from progesterone creams also unless you know through saliva testing that you need it…I personally will not use the synthetic creams even if they are naturally “based” or “bioidentical”. (completely natural ones may be a waste of money-for example, wild yams won’t help (1),it has “precursors” to progesterone that our bodies cannot use to actually produce it…but Please research this yourself through reliable scientific and/or medical papers (not through those who sell products) and talk to doctors who have taken the time to review the scientific literature extensively.
* I want to mention vitex here again:aka Vitex agnus-castus (Chasteberry). Vitex is not a phytoestrogen or a phytoprogestin!! it helps our pituitary gland do its normal job of producing the balance of hormones we are MEANT to have. (2)
By the Way, I do not sell any herbs or supplements…this issue is just extremely important to me and I know many that read this blog will find it important as well. This is just info I stumbled upon doing research, and believe me, before I use it, I will check out more sources just to be absolutely sure it shouldnt have any adverse effects.
If you know that you need more progesterone, it is wise to stay away from certain herbs even those used in ordinary cooking since some (like those listed above) are progesterone inhibitors or blockers.
I am still trying to find out what other plants are phytoprogestins besides the ones mentioned above, because these to me seem even more important to stay away from than the phytoestrogens, mainly because there are ways to help your body get rid of excess estrogens (such as a diet high in whole food fibers from fruits and vegetables) but I really haven’t found much info on how to make your body produce progesterone if you are taking/eating/drinking something that is “anti-progesterone” and actually blocks or inhibits your body from producing it.
I know this is a very long post, but I thought it was important “Food for Thought”. I hope it makes those of you who read it research more, talk to your doctor more, etc., and get your information from legitimate sources before you take any supplements to help infertility/pregnancy issues. This is not to say that you haven’t done research,I really am not trying to imply that & I certainly don’t want to insult your intelligence, but its just too easy to get bad info these days, especially on the internet where everyone is an “expert”.
To emphasize my point, I am going to say PLEASE DO NOT TAKE MY WORD ON ANY INFORMATION I HAVE GIVEN YOU HERE! I can’t stress the importance enough to get your information from sources that are reliable, competent, etc….and please DON’T get your info from those selling products/herbs etc.
I hope some of what I have had to say helps …My prayers and my heart are with all of you.
Heavendreamer/aka: Kathleen
Some supporting resources:
(2)
• direct pituitary agents: While Cimicifuga racemosa and soy products can influence pituitary action by peripheral modulation of LH and FSH via estrogenic effects, other herbs act directly upon the pituitary to modify prolactin, FSH and LH levels. The best known example is Vitex agnus-castus (Chasteberry). Animal studies have demonstrated Vitex inhibits prolactin levels in vitro and in vivo by binding to dopamine D2 receptors in the pituitary. Human studies have shown increase in progesterone levels in corpus luteum insufficiency during Vitex administration.
(1)commentary: Wild Yam and “Natural Progesterone”: There has been some confusion concerning products containing Dioscorea villosa (Mexican Wild Yam) that claim to boost endogenous progesterone levels, or to be a form of “natural progesterone”. To add to the confusion, some topical preparations actually contain both Dioscorea extract and pharmaceutical progesterone. The following points should be noted:
• The natural steroidal compound diosgenin is in fact estrogenic, not progesteronic.
• Diosgenin has been used as a starter compound in the laboratory synthesis of progesterone patented by Marker in the late 1940’s known as the Marker Degradation Process.
• Homologous metabolic pathways do not exist humans, and diosgenin is therefore not a “precursor” for endogenous progesterone synthesis.
(Brinker F. Brit J Phytotherapy 1997;4,3:123-145; Wilbur P. Eur J Herbal Med 1996 2.2:20-26, and 1996 2.3:19-26.)
Emmenagogue (Promotes menstruation)
• oxytocics: Several plant constituents have been shown to have oxytocic activity, notably caulosaponin and caulophyllosaponin from Caulophyllum thalictroides (Blue Cohosh) which is classified as a traditional emmenagogue. Other oxytocic compounds include sparteine in Cytisus scoparius (Scotch Broom), and quinine from Cinchona species.
That is beautiful. Just beautiful.
And absolutely hilarious at the same time. First there’s her “official” site or something, then, the words “Christine Northrup can bite me”. LOL
priceless!
That’s completely and totally awesome.
Ha!!
Ah, the democracy of the internet…
I have never read or participated in a blog before, so please forgive me if this is the wrong place and/or time for my comments.
I am a DES daughter who has (so far) unexplained fertility. I recently went through a bunch of tests and my gyn says everything “looks fine”, of course I know that everything is not “fine”.
DES (Diethylstilbesterol) was a synthetic hormone given to women to prevent miscarraige and to promote “stronger, healthier babies” even though it had never been shown it would do either. Instead of the supposed benefits, millions of women found not only that it did not prevent miscarraige, but that it could cause problems for them, AND infertility, reproductive malformations as well as a predisposition to certain cervical cancers in their daughters (problems in sons as well) who were exposed to DES in the womb. We still don’t know how many generations will be affected.
Although no abnormalities have been found in my reproductive organs (I think the tests done were not exactly all-inclusive), I am 41 years old and have never been pregnant ( at least none confirmed though I have very strong suspicions that I have miscarried extremely early several times.)
I was married before for 12 years and never had a confirmed pregnancy. Infrequency of coupling may have been a factor, so when I remarried my hopes were pretty high. Well, it’s been 2.5 years and no pregnancies.
I am writing to you first off because I want you to know that I understand some of the struggles and the pain you have been through.(I can’t begin to tell you how much my own stuggles have hurt, and how hard I struggle still to hang on to hope even at my age!) I empathize with you and understand your decisions to get on with your life, quit “trying” and eventually to adopt a child. I wish so badly that I could do that, but I just can’t seem to get there with the emotional part, and adopting a child will never happen for me…it’s way too expensive. (omg, sorry, Im not trying to make this a whine session)
Anyway, I was reading about the herbs you tried and it made me think… I have been doing quite a bit of research lately on herbs and supplements. I am trying to start a business making and selling lotions, shampoos etc that don’t affect our hormones and/or contain harmful chemicals) I was trying to find out which herbs do and do not have estrogenic effects since I don’t want the lotions etc. I make and sell to have any hormonal effects on those who use them. Along the line I started to learn about herbs and supplements that have an effect -positive or negative- on fertility (and of course my studies got a bit “diverted”, lol)
While it seems from what I have read on your infertility blog that you are finally content (for the most part) with where you are in your journey through all of this, I felt it might be important to mention this for those who may stumble across your blog and who are still trying.
To comment on: Archive:Infertility/Sept 30,2002
“While treating myself I used vitex (chasteberry), red raspberry leaf, red clover, nettles, dong quai and licorice root….And I was using natural progesterone….”
I understand that although you concieved using these herbs, it resulted in recurrent pregnancy loss. I’m so sorry to read this, I want to cry everytime I read about others going through this, because even though I don’t have “confirmed” miscarraiges, I feel very strongly that I have had them and it hurt every time.
I need to look into Red Raspberry leaf, dong-quai and nettle more,
Research that I have read supports Vitex for promoting progesterone by the way! From what I have read, it doesn’t act on the hormones to do this but stimulates the pituitary glands to promote natural hormone production.
BUT MORE IMPORTANTLY:
According to research -
“Herbs and spices with the highest estrogen receptor binding activity (that is, with high levels of phytoestrogens) were soy, thyme, licorice, red clover, turmeric, hops and verbena.”
“Herbal extracts, high in phytoestrogens that bound to estrogen receptors, either stimulated growth (that is, they functioned as estrogen agonists) or they had no activity (they were neutral).”
“The most potent estrogen-binding products were soy milk, licorice and red clover. ”
*************************************************
“The six highest progesterone-binding herbs and spices (ie, highest in phytoprogestins) were thyme, oregano, verbena, turmeric, red clover and damiana”
“extracts that were high in phytoprogestins either inhibited alkaline phosphatase (ie, they functioned as progesterone antagonists) or they had no effect (they were neutral) in these test systems.”
quotes from: Antioxidants, Nutraceuticals and Functional Foods
by Robert Ronzio, Ph.D.
In a nutshell:
Phytoestrogens are found in fruits, vegetables, grains, herbs, etc. and mimic estrogens. They bind to estrogen receptors in our bodies and replace the natural estrogens…acting like estrogens in our bodies.
Phytoprogestins are also found in foods/herbs, and bind to our progesterone receptors, but oddly enough, instead of acting like weak progesterone or producing more progesterone, they actually can block or inhibit our bodies ability to produce progesterone.
I feel so bad that this information is not (and has not been) widely available. So many women are trying herbal remedies as alternatives to harsh, invasive, and/or extremely expensive treatments. If you have used any of the herbs I listed here, please, please, please, do not blame yourself that it didn’t work! I am horrified to see that even people doing “clinical studies” who are doctors and phd’s are including red clover in their “remedies”.
I believe as early as 1947 ( I can’t find the article at the moment) it was found that sheep eating clover became infertile…this was one of the incidents that led to the research on phytoestrogens and how plants affect us chemically and especially hormonally.
Is it just me, or doesn’t it make sense that an herb that is shown to be “anti-progesterone” is not a good idea to include in a remedy for infertility when it is claiming to “balance” hormones?
So many woman are now “estrogen dominant” that the xenoestrogens, those from plastics,pesticides,etc (in cosmetics, preservatives like methyl, propyl &isobutylparben)
and the phytoestrogens and phytoprogestins in our foods or personal care products like sage,thyme, fennel, etc., are being blamed for the huge increase in Infertility. Between 1982-1988 Infertility increased by 36%!
It is just about impossible to get away from ALL estrogens but we can certainly get rid of some of the excess -i.e. help our bodies metabolize excess estrogens, watch our diets, what lotions, shampoos etc we use…we don’t want to go to the ABSOLUTE extreme probably, but it seems we are practically swimming in a sea of estrogens, it is likely we don’t need more.
While some believe that phytoestrogens can act as either pro estrogen OR against it depending on how much or how little estrogen the person who takes it has at the time, others, also based on research, believe that it may SEEM to block estrogens at first, but eventually promotes it and ends up acting like estrogen in the body after all.
Personally,since more and more women are estrogen dominant I would stay away from anything promoting estrogen as a supplement unless you have been shown through saliva tests that you don’t have enough bioavailable estrogen ( which I think is probably unlikely). We get a lot of estrogens just from what we eat every day.
All you have to do is type in the word “phytoestrogen” in a search and you will get tons of sites promoting them as beneficial to your health (you have to really dig to find the legitimate research type info) and see a very long list of foods, herbs and spices that we eat/drink every day…even that we use in our lotions, cosmetics and other personal care products.
It may be a good idea to stay away from progesterone creams also unless you know through saliva testing that you need it…I personally will not use the synthetic creams even if they are naturally “based” or “bioidentical”. (completely natural ones may be a waste of money-for example, wild yams won’t help (1),it has “precursors” to progesterone that our bodies cannot use to actually produce it…but Please research this yourself through reliable scientific and/or medical papers (not through those who sell products) and talk to doctors who have taken the time to review the scientific literature extensively.
* I want to mention vitex here again:aka Vitex agnus-castus (Chasteberry). Vitex is not a phytoestrogen or a phytoprogestin!! it helps our pituitary gland do its normal job of producing the balance of hormones we are MEANT to have. (2)
By the Way, I do not sell any herbs or supplements…this issue is just extremely important to me and I know many that read this blog will find it important as well. This is just info I stumbled upon doing research, and believe me, before I use it, I will check out more sources just to be absolutely sure it shouldnt have any adverse effects.
If you know that you need more progesterone, it is wise to stay away from certain herbs even those used in ordinary cooking since some (like those listed above) are progesterone inhibitors or blockers.
I am still trying to find out what other plants are phytoprogestins besides the ones mentioned above, because these to me seem even more important to stay away from than the phytoestrogens, mainly because there are ways to help your body get rid of excess estrogens (such as a diet high in whole food fibers from fruits and vegetables) but I really haven’t found much info on how to make your body produce progesterone if you are taking/eating/drinking something that is “anti-progesterone” and actually blocks or inhibits your body from producing it.
I know this is a very long post, but I thought it was important “Food for Thought”. I hope it makes those of you who read it research more, talk to your doctor more, etc., and get your information from legitimate sources before you take any supplements to help infertility/pregnancy issues. This is not to say that you haven’t done research,I really am not trying to imply that & I certainly don’t want to insult your intelligence, but its just too easy to get bad info these days, especially on the internet where everyone is an “expert”.
To emphasize my point, I am going to say PLEASE DO NOT TAKE MY WORD ON ANY INFORMATION I HAVE GIVEN YOU HERE! I can’t stress the importance enough to get your information from sources that are reliable, competent, etc….and please DON’T get your info from those selling products/herbs etc.
I hope some of what I have had to say helps …My prayers and my heart are with all of you.
Heavendreamer/aka: Kathleen
Some supporting resources:
(2)
• direct pituitary agents: While Cimicifuga racemosa and soy products can influence pituitary action by peripheral modulation of LH and FSH via estrogenic effects, other herbs act directly upon the pituitary to modify prolactin, FSH and LH levels. The best known example is Vitex agnus-castus (Chasteberry). Animal studies have demonstrated Vitex inhibits prolactin levels in vitro and in vivo by binding to dopamine D2 receptors in the pituitary. Human studies have shown increase in progesterone levels in corpus luteum insufficiency during Vitex administration.
(1)commentary: Wild Yam and “Natural Progesterone”: There has been some confusion concerning products containing Dioscorea villosa (Mexican Wild Yam) that claim to boost endogenous progesterone levels, or to be a form of “natural progesterone”. To add to the confusion, some topical preparations actually contain both Dioscorea extract and pharmaceutical progesterone. The following points should be noted:
• The natural steroidal compound diosgenin is in fact estrogenic, not progesteronic.
• Diosgenin has been used as a starter compound in the laboratory synthesis of progesterone patented by Marker in the late 1940’s known as the Marker Degradation Process.
• Homologous metabolic pathways do not exist humans, and diosgenin is therefore not a “precursor” for endogenous progesterone synthesis.
(Brinker F. Brit J Phytotherapy 1997;4,3:123-145; Wilbur P. Eur J Herbal Med 1996 2.2:20-26, and 1996 2.3:19-26.)
Emmenagogue (Promotes menstruation)
• oxytocics: Several plant constituents have been shown to have oxytocic activity, notably caulosaponin and caulophyllosaponin from Caulophyllum thalictroides (Blue Cohosh) which is classified as a traditional emmenagogue. Other oxytocic compounds include sparteine in Cytisus scoparius (Scotch Broom), and quinine from Cinchona species.
*You may want to check out the info on Gynecological herbs and terms at
http://www.IBISmedical.com